The simple truth about the upcoming election is this...

I've sat and thought about this whole election for a while, watching the various bits and pieces come out, the nonsense, the innuendo, the sniping etc. The only conclusion I've come to is very much along the lines of Wayne's original post:

Both of these candidates are utterly shite and probably unfit.

You can argue one way or the other over which one is worse, but right now from where I'm sitting the only difference between the two to me is the difference between Xenomorph and Predator. No matter which one wins, we all loose.

All this bickering over minutia to me at least seems utterly pointless. But then maybe that's because today is the first day off I've had since the 11th of this month.

I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. When contrasting the 2 there is no comparison. It is not hyperbole to call Hillary a wretched, truly evil woman. It is demonstrable FACT. The woman has no soul, literally or figuratively. The suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of human beings doesn't move the needle at all for her, it is just another opportunity for self enrichment. If she gets elected we could be looking at a death toll in the billions.

I wish there were such a place as hell since Hillary would be fast tracked there upon her death.
 
All this bickering over minutia to me at least seems utterly pointless.

I am also frustrated over the arguing over minutia. It SEEMS utterly pointless, but the point of it is to distract from actual issues - and I think this advantages Hillary. Quite frankly I don't give a damn about 11 year old man-jokes, I've heard worse and probably said as bad , it's like masturbating or nose picking - everyone denies they do it because they know it's not socially acceptable, but the still do it anyway. Clinton is a self enriching corrupt politician who uses her government position for personal gain? Big surprise. Trump saved millions on his taxes by taking advantage of the loopholes that politicians like Hillary have put in place for him? Not an issue. Hillary supposedly called black people niggers? Don't give a damn. These mean nothing. Americans are supposed to be voting for someone who will effectively carry out the will of Congress, not someone who is going to set policy unilaterally or let their own opinions get in the way of implementing what congress wants (where it does not conflict with the constitution). That's not how it seems to work in practice though. People think they are voting for policies.

On the topic of policy, the three issues that I see as important are:

TPP - Donald doesn't want it: Hillary does. I think it's a dangerous agreement that favours elite and powerful interests over the needs of people and the planet. Trump wins this one for me.
Glass-Steagall - Donald wrote into the Republican platform the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, Hillary opposes regulation of the financial industry (and gets paid by them to do so). This is another point for Trump in my book.
ISIS - Donald says we should co-operate with Russia to defeat ISIS. Hillary wants to have a no-fly zone to topple Assad (because somehow the resulting power vacuum will hurt ISIS afterwards). Trump's proposal on this is infintely reasonable and practical. Hillary's no-fly zone would require an attack on Assad's air bases and air defenses and also the Russian air bases and air defenses in Syria to allow unrivaled US air dominance, and that would be a) an illegal act of aggression under international law, b)an act of war against Russia. Trump wins this argument by miles as far as I'm concerned. Hillary's track record also suggests that she would seriously pursue such a course.

Those are my three main concerns and Trump wins them all. Now, if Bernie had been allowed to win the convention (which I think he probably did in terms of popular support - he always drew a bigger crowd than Hillary whenever he spoke) then the US would actually have a reasonable candidate to vote for - I said months ago that I'd like to see Bernie win because he could beat Trump, but that's not the way parties work.

On a more emotional basis I would like to see Donald Trump win the presidency because the Democratic Party doesn't want him to and the Republican Party ALSO doesn't want him too. Best protest vote ever!
 
I am also frustrated over the arguing over minutia. It SEEMS utterly pointless, but the point of it is to distract from actual issues - and I think this advantages Hillary.

Democrats always run campaigns that are over minutia that "triggers emotions", the largest Democratic voting block is single women , all the "arguing over minutia" they do is to trigger "feelings"

Look at what the "utterly pointless" minutia the media is hyping, and what "feelings" its designed to trigger in what voting block

The media is now mostly DNC operatives with bylines, Wikileaks has shown the collusion

arguing over policy issues doesn't change anyone's mind, however triggering an emotional response using jokes, memes, and useless minutia does
 
It is not hyperbole to call Hillary a wretched, truly evil woman. It is demonstrable FACT. (...) If she gets elected we could be looking at a death toll in the billions.
Given the type of sources where you appear to get your "facts" from, I am not even sure if you are aware of this but the language you used is what any even-tempered person would expect to read in the reprinted manifesto of some mentally unstable individual who was either planning or succeeded at committing acts of violence ("to save billions of lives", "to prevent the devil from being elected president", etc.).
 
TPP - Donald doesn't want it: Hillary does. I think it's a dangerous agreement that favours elite and powerful interests over the needs of people and the planet. Trump wins this one for me.
Hillary Clinton on TPP: "I oppose it now, I’ll oppose it after the election, and I’ll oppose it as president" (Source)

Glass-Steagall - Donald wrote into the Republican platform the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, Hillary opposes regulation of the financial industry (and gets paid by them to do so). This is another point for Trump in my book.
She claims to have the most comprehensive plan for regulating Wall Street: Link

ISIS - Donald says we should co-operate with Russia to defeat ISIS. Hillary wants to have a no-fly zone to topple Assad (because somehow the resulting power vacuum will hurt ISIS afterwards). Trump's proposal on this is infintely reasonable and practical. Hillary's no-fly zone would require an attack on Assad's air bases and air defenses and also the Russian air bases and air defenses in Syria to allow unrivaled US air dominance, and that would be a) an illegal act of aggression under international law, b)an act of war against Russia. Trump wins this argument by miles as far as I'm concerned. Hillary's track record also suggests that she would seriously pursue such a course.
Possibly. I would not bet on whether the talk about Syria is just posturing or not. For me, it is too close to call.

Those are my three main concerns and Trump wins them all.
I am not sure he does. As far as I can tell, he wins one out of three. The other two look more like ties.

Now, if Bernie had been allowed to win the convention (...) then the US would actually have a reasonable candidate to vote for
See, this is what I do not understand. If someone aligns closely with the political views of Bernie Sanders, wouldn't it matter to you what Bernie Sanders, the candidate you prefer, has to say about the available choices for this year's presidential election? He has gone on the record stating that, "on her worst day", Clinton would be a "100 times better than any of the Republicans". He also made statements such as "Donald Trump is the least qualified person to become president in the history of our country" and "Why would we even expect Trump to come up with a serious plan to fix a rigged economy? He's the one who rigged it."

So, how come you take Sanders at face value when he talks about specific political issues, yet you completely dismiss his complete and utter rejection of Trump?
 
Given the type of sources where you appear to get your "facts" from, I am not even sure if you are aware of this but the language you used is what any even-tempered person would expect to read in the reprinted manifesto of some mentally unstable individual who was either planning or succeeded at committing acts of violence ("to save billions of lives", "to prevent the devil from being elected president", etc.).

Do you believe Mikhail Gorbachev is a mentally unstable individual?

Ex-Russian President warns of nuclear war risk as Russia-America tension rises

As for Hillary being an evil human being, why do you ignore the suffering she directly caused to millions of people? Why don't you ask one of the 10+ million Haitians what they think of Hillary and Bill Clinton?


Haiti is just one such example, but probably the worst. I'm sorry, but stealing billions from the poorest and most vulnerable people in the western world for personal enrichment is the definition of evil. I didn't call her the devil, as the devil is a fictional deity. Hillary is a tangible flesh and bone evil person.
 
Possibly. I would not bet on whether the talk about Syria is just posturing or not. For me, it is too close to call.

That one gets me as well.
Donald Trump's long and colourful life has shown pretty clearly that Donald Trump cares about Donald Trump and only about Donald Trump.
The trust that this well documented, serial-self-serving-bullshitter, won't change his mind on any of the policies people voting for him see as "good" is wildly optimistic and, in my opinion, completely misguided.

I have seen nothing from Trump that would make me trust him.
Not even over Clinton and I have zero trust for her.
 
I have seen nothing from Trump that would make me trust him.
Not even over Clinton and I have zero trust for her.
This is why I'm firm in that I'm not supporting Trump, I'm voting for him. Big difference, in that between Trump and Her Majesty, he's (astoundingly) the lesser of two completely evil shit shows...

The fact that either of them were ever nominated goes a LONG way to demonstrating how broken this country really is...

Wayne
 
Hillary Clinton on TPP: "I oppose it now, I’ll oppose it after the election, and I’ll oppose it as president" (Source)
After supporting it and supporting Obama's fast track for it - until Bernie beat her up over it and she sees Trump is beating her up over it - THEN she changes - at least that's her public position. Trump opposed it from day one and also wants to reopen NAFTA. I believe less in Hillary's sudden conversion than I do in Trumps years of railing against big trade deals.

Clinton raved about Trans-Pacific Partnership before she rejected it

If she is elected and she doesn't push to pass it then that will be fine, but the real thanks should go to the whistleblowers that leaked the earlier drafts and to Bernie and his supporters.

She claims to have the most comprehensive plan for regulating Wall Street: Link

Bill Clinton signed the law that lifted Glass-Steagall. Hillary gives speeches to banks at fee rates that cannot be justified by hours put in - it's just a bribe by another name. She supports fiddling around with Dodd-Frank which was so neutered by the bank lobbyists that it's almost as bad as no law and she talks about some more fiddling about the edges.

Donald, as far as I know, has no such relationship with the banks and his position is simply to bring back Glass-Steagall, a law with known implementation and well studied effects that kept the economy sound for decades.

Donald's plan on this seems more immediate and feasible returning the system to a known and safer state. Once that's done you can fiddle with it, maybe.

Possibly. I would not bet on whether the talk about Syria is just posturing or not. For me, it is too close to call.

Hillary calls for war with Russia and Donald calls for co-operation and it's too close to call because Hillary could just be lying? I have trouble buying that.

See, this is what I do not understand. If someone aligns closely with the political views of Bernie Sanders, wouldn't it matter to you what Bernie Sanders, the candidate you prefer, has to say about the available choices for this year's presidential election?
That's the reason you find it hard to understand. You think the people who followed Bernie were following him because he was Bernie. Some of them might have been, but many of them supported and worked for Bernie because of the policies he espoused. The people wanted those policies, and Bernie was backing those policies. The people who were supporting him on those grounds are free agents and since Bernie is now out of the race, it really doesn't matter what he says (and he knows this). Bernie made a deal to play the game and if he lost to endorse the party's candidate. His supporters understand that he made this deal and know that he says what hehas to say as he is an honourable man who must keep his side of the deal. Even though I think it's pretty clear that he was robbed (in much the same way that Ron Paul was robbed in the previous cycle) exemplified by the extremely large crowds those candidates were able to attract to rallies, filling arenas, even though the numbers were never shown in the media, while the "approved" candidates did well if they filled a school gym - Bernie played to raise the issues and he did that - he cracked the media silence and brought the debate to the public.
However, as with Ron Paul, Bernie's supporters aren't sheep to the cult of personality. The majority were attracted to the respective candidates by simply having someone who spoke their voice. After their candidates could no longer be president and carry their voice to that office they looked around afresh at who best fit their vision. Since both candidates were really outsiders of their respective parties, many of their supporters were ceither outsiders or very close to the edges of their parties. These people don't feel the need to vote the team colours because their voice isn't represented by the team colours.
Another thing is that, and it should be pretty obvious, a person isn't automatically correct on every issue just because you found him to be correct on several where you have agreement. He isn't a magician or a god that needs to be followed on every statement. If he says that in his opinion Hillary is best the individual who has agreed with him on other matters can still chose to disagree with him on that. Perhaps they weigh the individual policy positions differently and on their balance Hillary isn't the best.
What perpetually confuses me is that people don't understand this and think that they have to be slavishly loyal to someone who they will likely never meet or be friends with and with whom they will inevitably disagree on numerous issues despite those that they agree on.

"Why would we even expect Trump to come up with a serious plan to fix a rigged economy? He's the one who rigged it."
If that were so I would expect the winners of that rigged economy would support him most vigorously. They do not.
 
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See my first reply on the Trump thread.

OK, I found the original video you are referring to and I can see why this bothers you. The context of the discussion helps a little, but yeah could be taken as you take it.

I won't pretend to speak for Trump, but hopefully he didn't mean boots on the ground would storm a house, only find babies and execute them. Hopefully he meant where these terrorists have a support network of family hiding terrorists, we'd take them out too. If Mommy, Daddy, sister, brother etc of the terrorists is assisting them, they are terrorists too. I do doubt he's talking about finding 3rd cousins once removed working at a Dairy Queen on a LA Beach, taking them in the parking lot and executing them.
 
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