Plane down. 295 passengers dead. Neocons squeal with delight.

Glaucus said:
If I remember correctly it had something to do with organ stealing and some Israelis. It was the sort of story that was rather unremarkable, it was posted on it's own thread for no apparent reason and the only interesting thing about it was that it was posted by you and that it involved jews.
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I've posted organ stealing stories about Kosovo too. A bit of an abomination when those things happen - unless Jews do it, I'm sorry. I have to take into account how we can't hold them to the same standards as other people because of how their parents suffered (uniquely I might add because no-one else suffers as much).
Have I made such a claim?
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Then I must have misread where you were going with your comment. You seemed to be implying that people who criticise Israel were biased. Or were you just saying that you can be a Jew hater and criticize Israel but people who don't hate Jews criticize Israel as well? In which case, what's to defend? Everybody can criticize so how does criticism make you a hater - unless it crosses what you're comfortable with after which you call it bias and then just decide - must be a Jew hater. Nice bit of wiggle room it seems you have left yourself.
Yes, but... You kinda have made it clear in the past how you feel that the US jumps only exactly how high Israel tells it to jump. So are you now trying to convince me that you hate the puppet and not the puppet master?
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On matters of importance to Israel, like when they feel like having a war on their neighbours or other matters in the middle east like Iraq, and if the powers that be are their guys (which is not as much the case under Obama) then the US dances to the tune. Even under Obama it's hard to say "We condemn the disproportionate response in Gaza" or "the settlements are illegal under international law and must be stopped and reversed" or the highly non controversial "the wall is a land grab". No US politician can do that. In fact congress just voted to give Israel a half a billion dollars to help them with the burden of killing Arabs. But on other matters like rolling back Russia (possibly to the point of war) and pushing back China - that's USA stuff, but if Israel could lend a hand with that it would go some ways to greasing the skids when it comes to stuff like ... voting for money for Israel and not being too critical about killing Arabs.
It sounds like you're talking about a movie or a game. Sorry, I didn't really think along the lines of fantastical plots.
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Like I said, it could be accomplished by less than twenty guys considering the assets under control. It would be a ridiculously simple operation for a capable intelligence agency. The far more complicated part would be the media effort to capitalize on it. And it isn't far from this that have been done before.
In that case then my favorite would be that Typhon finally escaped from his prison under Mount Aetna and boarded flight MH17 to take a vacation in the far east (like all good multitentacled monsters do these days). Zeus would have none of that and thus shot the plane down with a flurry of lightning bolts. Typhon was ripped to peaces and scattered around the crash site. To help cover up the incident the Pro-Russian rebels decided to quickly dispense with the body parts and tamper with the crash site to remove all evidence.
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That would be because you are a delusional tinfoil hat wearing crank. Now why don't you come up with a stupid theory of creation too by way of disproving evolution. You see, the way it works is, just because you say something stupid doesn't mean anybody else did. Maybe you don't see that.
You also don't seem to be able to distinguish between a person liking a theory and a person considering a theory a likely one.
 
Glaucus said:
Yes, the flight wasn't on the normal flight path. However, to say that the air space was closed is not quite accurate. Air space is three dimensional, and by that I mean it has a height factor. MH17 was considerably above the closed portion of the air space. It was believed that anything above a certain altitude was safe because it was assumed that no one was firing medium range SAMs.
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' "Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.
"After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” '
Now, obviously he isn't saying that the rebels didn't have any such weapons - but he is saying that Kiev has these weapons but the rebels didn't get any of them. Clearly there was possibility of accident and possibility of losing control of these weapons. However, it was my impression from the news that Kiev didn't have any such weapons and therefore the plane could only have been shot down by missiles brought in from Russia.

Putin obviously has better knowledge as to what weapons the rebels have and what they're shooting at, so of coarse he wouldn't fly over Ukraine.
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Putin has better knowledge of what Kiev has and how tasty a target he would be for them since members of the Kiev government have publicly called for his murder (and the rest of the Russians too, of course). Of course, there is the little wrinkle that if he had been flying over and been shot at he would have to deny it. It he had been shot at he would pretty much have to respond and that would mean war, which Putin cannot afford at the moment, something he is trying to avoid. If he was being nice enough not to mention it, I'm sure Washington and Kiev would honour that and refrain from publishing any information that would show he had in fact been shot at by Kiev. That's not to say he did fly over - as I said before, Kiev wants to kill him too much and they have Buk systems that could reach him so it would be foolhardy.

By the way .. here is a nice picture of one of Kievs anti-aircraft missile systems near Slavyansk (about 60 km north of Donetsk) around July 4. Pretty nice bit of kit. Pity the rebels don't have an air force.
Neocons are frustrated more than anyone.
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Yes, but this was so exciting for them. But, you see, Obama and his guys are mostly not neo-cons. That's what makes it just so annoying. It used to be easy for them. They could funnel the propaganda mostly to the president and then leverage the president to rally the nation. These days they have to launch massive propaganda at the public and hope that public pressure will force the presidents hand (and if not now, then at least at election time). See the mockery of Obama's inability to start a war even with such good excuses as poison as and aircraft shoot downs. It's true they are burning up inside.
NATO isn't gonna do a darned thing here, the most we can expect are a few more sanctions.
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NATO has already extended non-ally membership to Ukraine and Georgia and a few others. That's a territorial expansion. Yes, not enough for the neo-cons of course, but still an increase in the US security regime.

But what would you have NATO do? Start killing people? Mostly civilians as usual, of course. Is that what you would like? To start another war? How Ted Nugent of you.
 
The Russian's have photographic evidence of Kiev's Buk systems in the area around Donetsk. They also say they happen to know that a US spy satellite was passing overhead at the time of the shoot down and it was daylight and clear so the US should have pretty clear evidence of what happened so where is it?

The US hasn't brought any such evidence forward but perhaps it's because it doesn't show what they'd like it to show.

"U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms."

Of course Robert's source may be leading him on but Parry isn't green. Do you remember the Iran-Contra affair. There's a reason you know about it and why the government can't just call it a conspiracy theory. The reason is Robert Parry.
 
You're such a useful idiot fluffy, emphasis on idiot though. The Russians are gonna run as much interference as possible, pointing at all sorts of things and asking all sorts of questions only so that they can deflect any attention. Nothing like sparking off a bunch of conspiracy theories to keep people away from the truth. It's really quite despicable and I don't really expect any better from you either. You're a terrible person fluffy and I'm sickened to ever have considered you a friend. Why don't you do us all a favor and jump off a bridge.
 
Deary me.

Why don't you do us all a favor and jump off a bridge.
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Why don't you go for a wee lie doon?
 
Glaucus said:
Why don't you do us all a favor and jump off a bridge.
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I'm sorry that I didn't jump to your preferred conclusions. I have been watching this build for a long time - since before the coup in Kiev. Putin isn't dumb and I'd peg him a couple of steps down from our guys in the evil department though I'm happy to admit that may only be out of political necessity. Who knows what kind of monster he'd be if he had the power our guys have.
Your reaction doesn't come as a surprise to me though I still find it disappointing. You've been kind of carried along by the hype and primed to accept stories about Pootie-poot without much thought. Propaganda is an emotional business, the more emotional the better. You are actually quite normal and I cannot hold that against you - most people are, and you only really need to reach "most people".
To think that Putin is responsible for shooting down a civilian airplane in cold blood you really have to park your brain and imagine that he is a cartoon villain. There - I've said that word again. "Mwah-ha-ha - I will shoot down a plane full of innocent people and then they will know how evil I am and they will fear me!!!" Imagine he had to be at least half-way competent in human psychology to rise up through the KGB and must be surrounded by buddies from his intelligence days have a pretty good handle on how to swing the moods of populations. Can you really imagine that anyone (rebels included) could find any advantage in committing a gratuitous atrocity?
Generally if you are going to do something like that then you would only do it if you could figure that you would be able to pin it on your opponent and to do that you would have to be ready to go with a massive propaganda blast like the west did. The guy that gets flat footed and who takes a week to get his shit together is NOT the guy who expected the airplane to happen.
Of course, you have already decided that it was probably an accident, or so you claim. I have also said that I think it was probably an accident. Perhaps when I jump off the bridge we should hold hands, no? Oh, but that's not really what we disagree on, I guess.
Perhaps where we are far apart is you'd like to get started with bombing Russians and I'd rather not. Like I said before, Putin will play for time because with time comes clarity. Just as in Syria with the gas attacks, when experts finally got involved in investigating the facts didn't favour the propaganda. You didn't likely get that memo but the people at the UN and the intelligence agencies did and ultimately most countries are going to make their decisions on sober assessments from these agencies rather then the bloodlust of their lied to by foreigners population (unless it suits them, of course). This episode is already starting to look a little over baked in the histrionic department. The pedals on this bicycle are already starting to go backwards.
The neo-cons do not currently have their hands on the steering wheel nor their feet on the pedals but they are yelling loudly from the back seat and stove piping what ever they can just as they always have. As usual, expect their "evidence" to remain secret for national security reasons. Wait and watch.
 
Senior US Intelligence Officials say - no evidence of direct Russian involvement - it was probably a mistake.
metalman claims that this statement was put out by Obama's lackies because Obama feared losing access to Russian stud Putin's bed chamber.
Glaucus disagrees and believes that Obama is afraid of Putin's super-evil-powers.
 
Here is another "mistake" story. Of course, they can't help themselves but to mention it was probably from Russia, but just about all of Kiev's weapons are from Russia too .. for some strange reason.
 
The rebels have handed over the black boxes to investigators. Some investigators are now in the area. Bodies are on the train at the Donetsk railway station and ... the Kiev regime is attacking the area. Presumably that will lead to a better investigation and better treatment of the bodies that may still be in refrigerated cars at the railway station. How can the rebels guarantee safety for the investigators? They can't obviously but they will be blamed for interfering, no doubt, when Kiev chases off (or accidentally kill) any investigators. And then what will happen to the evidence?
 
Russia says they detected an SU-27 in the area of MH17 - this is presented as something possibly sinister. However, Iranian defence expert says that escorts of aircraft for security in dangerous airspace are not out of the usual. Presence of fighters may have, however, encouraged rebels to ignore transponder data and assume it was a high value military target.
 
You're truly a sad individual. You write several lines building up a straw man about how I think evil Putin ordered the shoot down and then remember that I already stated that I believe it was an accident. And yes, I fully believe it was an accident as not much good would come from an intentional downing from either side. Most articles support this, the only ones who claim otherwise are Ukrainian propaganda and they're over the top crazy too but luckily most western media just ignores that. However it's you that takes Russian propaganda and posts it here as if it's something we should seriously consider. Btw, the Russians are throwing out a bunch of different theories, many of which are clearly contradictory. First it was a plot to shoot down Putin's plane, next we the plane was full of dead bodies before take off. This almost seems like a variant of a double bind technique that depends on contradiction and confusion to make people do something without direct coercion although in this case the goal would be to make them not believe a certain reality. You seem to love this technique as well as you love to post various different conspiracy theories which are often contradictory to actual events or to themselves with the probable goal of making people doubt all explanations including the official one. For you it doesn't matter if "normal" people believe any one particular conspiracy theory, for you the important thing is that they doubt actual documented events. That's why you keep talking about the Syria conflict as if there are only two warring sides. Luckily most normal people aren't so easily manipulated and in fact the only ones who fall for this crap are people dumb enough to think they're smarter than everyone else.

If Russia and the pro-Russians came out and admitted it and offered compensation and any assistance I'd have some level of respect for them. But instead they do all they can to play politics with it and have only disgraced themselves with the horrible manner in which they handled the disaster. But go ahead and provide them with all the political cover you can, they certainly need it the most right now. The Ukrainians of the West ceremoniously loaded the deceased into planes destined for home and showed full respect for the victims. The Ukrainians of the East harassed first in responders while in a drunken stooper. People notice these things and they remember them and that's because they speak volumes.
 
Glaucus said:
I fully believe it was an accident as not much good would come from an intentional downing from either side. Most articles support this, the only ones who claim otherwise are Ukrainian propaganda and they're over the top crazy too but luckily most western media just ignores that.
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I suppose you don't get to see a lot of UK tabloid front pages. If you did, you probably wouldn't have written that.
Regardless, the anti-Russian propaganda machine has been in full swing over here ever since the crash and "accident" is not a word which features very much.
 
In somber ceremony, Dutch welcome home first remains of MH17 victims

I'm not posting this article here because it's worth reading, but because one of the comments someone made is kinda interesting. Since comments have a tendency to "scroll down" or just dissapear I'll quote it here, but the basic gist is that if you take the plane speed and altitude and crash site, the only mathimatically possible explanation is that the missile was fire from pro-Russian held territory.

I spent some time calculating the probability of who fired the missile. I am a physicist in the nuclear industry, but find doing such calculations at times rewarding. I used the basic information from Wikpedia such as ranges and speeds. I did round off to make it simpler, but usually did so to make the probabilites of success BETTER than they usually are.

The Buk missile system has a maximum kill distance of
about 24 miles. The more horizontal the
target from the launch the further it is effective and the more vertical the
target the distance reduces to 15.5 miles maximum. With a target at over 6 miles high as the
Malaysia flight was, the maximum intercept distance would be about 19 miles However your probability of success drops to
5% at that distance and obviously you want a higher probability of success to
be 90% or better which is at 12 to 13 miles.
Since the jet was at over 6 miles high, that means the jet would have to
be within 10 horizontal miles of the launcher at the time the missile
hits. It would take 18 to 22 seconds for
the missile to travel that far. Since
the jet is traveling at 880 feet per second and the travel time is an average
of 20 seconds the jet would travel about 3 miles during the missiles travel
time. Thus if you fired at the jet as it
approached you could do so 3 miles further way making the effective range back
out to 15 to 16 miles. But this same
advantage of increasing the range when the target is approaching, also is a
disadvantage if the target is already passed you and increasing it's
range. Thus using the same formula, the
distance you can shoot a target passed you is 9 to 10 miles or the probability
of success quickly goes to 0. Per the
radar data the jet was struck 31 miles from the Russian border.

So who shot the jet down? Well since the rebels supported by Russia
controls most of the eastern part of Ukraine, the Ukrainians would have to have
a missile launcher within 40 to 41 miles of the Russian Border which is about
how far Donetsk is from the Russian border and this area and about 40 miles to
the west of it has no Ukrainian military assets. The Rebels control this area.

CONCLUSION:.
The missile that struck the jet was fired from north and east of Donetsk
in a Westward trajectory. The missile
could not have been fired from the Kiev controlled region. Mathematically impossible
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I'm sure all this is far more complex than this and the math might not be bang on, but still interesting.
 
Robert said:
For someone who claims to be a nuclear physicist, I would certainly agree that his use of the term "mathematically impossible" is "interesting". ;)
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I agree, people who claim things like that I tend to be rather skeptical of. People with real creds tend to make their own blog and post stuff like that there. This was posted on an article that wasn't really even focused on the blame game. Still, it at least gives us something to think about, specifically, that we may be able to use math to guide us back to reality. Of course using math requires all the right variables and algorithms, but we should have all of that available - we just gotta do it.
 
Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile

I figured it would only be a matter of time before some pro-Russian Ukrainian with a conscience would like to start getting things off their chest.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.
Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.
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Glaucus said:
You write several lines building up a straw man about how I think evil Putin ordered the shoot down and then remember that I already stated that I believe it was an accident.
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I never forgot. I thought that you might have forgotten that we at least had that agreement, being that the post I was responding to was so ... emotional?

However it's you that takes Russian propaganda and posts it here as if it's something we should seriously consider.
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Yes, that is what you say. Information that does not agree with the western version as pushed through the State Department and the press is propaganda. And yet, when Kerry complains of the drunken mishandling of bodies and the belligerence of the rebels not letting everyone flood into the territory they have been fighting and dying to defend ... and how Putin is responsible etc, that's not propaganda, but when one of our guys who goes and fetches the bodies says he thinks they did a good job in difficult conditions, that must be Russian propaganda. The western reports could hardly be more obviously emotional manipulation, do you not even hear the language they use? Personifying a country as it's leader is what we do when we are beating the drums. It was never the government of Iraq we dealt with but Saddam Saddam Saddam. It's part of the rhetoric. People find it hard to hate countries and institutions, too esoteric. That's why we use human targets. That's just part of the literary evidence for what is going on.
Btw, the Russians are throwing out a bunch of different theories, many of which are clearly contradictory. First it was a plot to shoot down Putin's plane, next we the plane was full of dead bodies before take off.
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Putin quickly officially denied that first one. The second he probably feels should not be dignified with any comment, lest it end up sticking to him. In fact that one seems to have started as an off-handed comment perhaps from someone who doesn't realize how quickly bodies can go off in the heat.
On the other hand the entirety of the western media knew immediately that MH17 was shot down by rebels using a missile Putin had given them to shoot commercial planes down with. That was the tenor and thrust of the headlines with some mild backing off from that near the bottom of the reportage.
It's still reported that Putin bares the responsibility for this shoot down - no admission of US interference in precipitating and backing the coup in Kiev and the ferocity of Kievs prosecution of the war against the people who don't wish to represented by them.

You seem to love this technique as well as you love to post various different conspiracy theories which are often contradictory to actual events or to themselves with the probable goal of making people doubt all explanations including the official one.
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Maybe to events as you've been told them. Or, more likely from what I have seen and heard in our press, fact free innuendo and rhetorical gimmicks - kind of like the lead-up to Iraq, like saying Saddam and 911 within the same sentence, just because. In a few years, if we're still around, go pick up a paper from a few days ago and read it with some detachment.

That's why you keep talking about the Syria conflict as if there are only two warring sides.
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There ARE only two warring side - Russia and the US. Lot's of player on the ground with their own agendas, hoping to carve a little something out of the mayhem but that is the nature of proxy wars. And most hilariously the US talks about arming the moderates. Here's a clue for you. The moderates are the ones who don't have and don't want to take up arms. And they exist, and they were on the streets at the beginning, and they have denounced the armed fighters that we arm and train.
If Russia and the pro-Russians came out and admitted it and offered compensation and any assistance I'd have some level of respect for them.
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(This is a bit of an aside but interesting psychology).
There are guilty people in jail and there are innocent people in jail. The guilty are more likely to get parole. Do you know why?

But instead they do all they can to play politics with it and have only disgraced themselves with the horrible manner in which they handled the disaster.
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They seem to have handled it not entirely terribly considering the enormous pressure they've been under. They are being attacked and are trying to defend their little chunk of turf and are wary of ceding ground - but nonetheless, while under attack they have managed to recover the bodies and let inspectors into the site and they have now turned over the black boxes (despite rumours that they had sent them to Moscow - which, for all we know they may have and then got them back. You could understand why Russia might want to make a backup before letting them go). Many of Kerry's nasty things he said about how the rebels handled things seem to be just cheap shots. Every indication is that they are cooperating - but now I hear much consternation that ... what was the head line? ... something about indications that the airplane was sawed in half!!! Think of the fun the Russian press could have with that headline. But read on and the story becomes less and less of a thing. So why the outrageous headline? To catch eyes and leave the people who don't have much time to read stories with a very mistaken impression. Most people skim. It's a fact of our busy lives and exploitable for a quick psi-hack. Don't imagine that there isn't propaganda on both sides.

The Ukrainians of the East harassed first in responders while in a drunken stooper.
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The rebels have been labelled terrorists by Kiev almost immediately even though it was Kiev that was attacking and killing them and they were the defenders. There is a war of words, painting the opponent as sub-human. Would you believe that they were baby eating vermin. Probably not, that's a bit WWII. But saying that the rebels basically desecrated our dead - that's an emotional hook you can sink pretty deep. That's the sort of thing that slides right by the critical faculties. There have been rumours in the western press also that bodies had been stolen. Kerry actually complained that the bodies were being removed from the location - presumably he wanted them left there to rot rather than to be returned.
And yet, who, pray tell, were the first responders? Emergency workers and volunteer miners who happen to be Eastern Ukrainians. But mister Kerry would have you believe they're all a bunch of degenerates who deserve nothing but our bombs on their heads. Effective propaganda is aimed at the emotions, not the intellect.
 
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