Now that didn't take long!

FluffyMcDeath said:
metalman said:
2cyfq0l.jpg
If there's one thing Hitler couldn't stand it was commies. Of course there were several things he couldn't stand and minorities was another, jews, gypsies, homosexuals... no sir, he didn't like 'em.

19th and 20th century Leftists were very enthusistic practitioners of antisemitism, and still are.
Karl Marx: On The Jewish Question

The Swastika was a socialist symbol long before Hitler became influential. The Red Army used it during and after World War I as a representation of two entwined letters "S" for "Socialist".

Fascist states have included Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Tojo's Japan, Franco's Spain, Pinochet's Chile, and possibly Peron's Argentina. There are numerous differences between them. Hitler's Fascism was racist. Mussolini's was not. Mussolini's fascism involved belligerent nationalism. Franco's did not. What each have in common is what defines fascism: "A governmental system with strong centralized power, permitting no opposition or criticism, controlling all affairs of the nation (industrial, commercial, etc.)"

Socialist states have included the USSR, Communist China, socialist Sweden, socialist England, Cuba, North Korea, and other regimes in Eastern Europe, East Africa, and Southeast Asia. Some socialist regimes (like Sweden's and England's) were elected democratically. Others, like the USSR's and the PRC's, were the result of violent revolutions. Others were military coup (Cuba, Ethiopia, Vietnam) or foreign invasion (the Eastern Bloc). What traits these various states held in common, defines socialism: "a theory or system of social organization which advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means or production, capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole"


capitalism: the social system in which property is privately owned, and the government's function is restricted to the protection of individual rights.

Socialism and fascism are each forms of leftist statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Mind you, he had his weaknesses. He liked dogs and children, liked to paint Disney characters like The Seven Dwarves, let the Red Cross into the concentration camps.

Hitler and Gandhi
1. Both had mustaches.
2. Both masters at enthralling massive populations
3. Both were vegetarian
4. Both abstained from alcohol/drugs
5. Both were voracious readers.
6. Both loved animals and children.
7. Both subscribed to a particular spiritual belief
8. Both liked swastikas
9. Both liked marching.
10. Both had misgivings about Jews.
11. Both hated the Brits.
 
metalman said:
FluffyMcDeath said:
Mind you, he had his weaknesses. He liked dogs and children, liked to paint Disney characters like The Seven Dwarves, let the Red Cross into the concentration camps.

Hitler and Gandhi
Both had many followers - why?

Both presented the prospect of liberating their countries from the viceroys controlling them, for one thing. People like noble causes like that - it brings people together, makes them feel good and right - and they like that feeling so much they don't tend to like to question if much of it is actually true or not - except the traitors, of course, but that's because they are traitors.
 
Well, you're starting to get more nuance but you haven't grasped some fundamentals yet.
metalman said:
capitalism: the social system in which property is privately owned, and the government's function is restricted to the protection of individual rights.
Capitalism is a system in which those that own sufficient resources can get other people without resources to work for them so that they don't have to and by so doing can gain control over more resources. A government which protects this system is eventually owned by it thus it develops into fascism. This is a natural consequence of the fact that as capital increases its ability to increase increases and its ability to control government increases. Eventually only the most powerful capitalists have representation in the government and the regular folk have no representation. The end state is similar to Feudalism and slavery. Indeed, societies have repeatedly started out as fairly egalitarian and quickly transformed into societies controlled by a few who own everything. Progress generally slows at this point as the poor are too poor and busy serving the rich to demand and cause progress and the rich are quite happy just being the boss of everything.

Capitalism, in a limited form, is a powerful motive force in economies. Just like fire is an effective means of heating your home, capitalism is an effective way of motivating your economy, but unrestrained capitalism is much more effective at driving your economy just like unrestrained fire is even more effective at heating your home. However, in both cases the downside is significant.

To remain effective, capitalism MUST be regulated by a government that is significantly bigger than the biggest capitalist and must, from time to time, break up the holdings of the biggest capitalist to a) prevent a slide into corruption and fascism and b) to break up small parts of the economy in a controlled way to prevent the otherwise inevitable crash of the economy as the engine burns out.

For this situation to even vaguely work the government has to be answerable to a large well informed and socially interested mass of people.

Strictly speaking, capitalism IS NOT a social system. It is an economic system that is quite anti-social, it's tilted (though usefully) toward the principle benefit of the few.

The majority of people are socially minded and that is because we are social animals and have lived socially for many generations and social instincts tend to benefit us. To be able to trust each other allows us to make deals. To be able to organize to punish deal breakers helps us maintain the efficiency of deal making and trading (else it would all devolve into cheating and then we would have great difficulty in getting anything done). The provision of police, courts, means of punishment, these are parts of a social system. The economy is also a part and a product of the social system and so capitalism is a part of the social system that is western society (yes society - not capitality).

The company town is completely consistent with capitalism. The slave holdings of the cotton plantations are completely consistent with capitalism. Indeed the slave WERE capital.

Socialism and fascism are each forms of leftist statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens.

This is bollocks. Capitalism can survive quite happily in a socialist society. Capitalism is a major component in most western socialist societies. Capitalism was also central to fascist societies. The USA is both Capitalist and Socialist. Two thirds of the US population support the idea of a single payer healthcare system like that in Canada. Why? It's just a better way of getting healthcare done. It knocks out hugely inefficient financial organizations, primarily insurance, who do a lot of taking peoples' money and a lot of not paying out on the weakest excuses, knowing that the poor slobs will be so broken after paying their bills that they'd never be able to sue. You can tell that they are inefficient providers of services because they make vast profits. Truly efficient economies make very thin margins at each levels - competition tends to enforce that - but financial institutions manage to regularly game the system because they don't actually make anything.

Capitalism is a more effective means of production than Communism but Socialism makes for a freer, more rewarding life for the average than oligarchy. You really need to start comparing apples to apples rather than to oranges.
 
OK McDeath, I'm putting you on the spot :duel:


If you think Socialism is so great please choose from this list which countries you would like to live or liked to have lived during their period of Socialism.

Don't crow hop now!
 
Fade said:
OK McDeath, I'm putting you on the spot :duel:


If you think Socialism is so great please choose from this list which countries you would like to live or liked to have lived during their period of Socialism.

Don't crow hop now!

Why don't you pick something from this list of food that you would like to eat.

1)Feces
2)Razor blades
3)broken glass

Go on... what's the hold up? Oh, that's a bullsh!t list, you say? Exactly.

This is a list of countries, past and present, that declared themselves socialist either in their names or their constitutions. No other criteria are used; thus, some or all of these countries may not fit any specific definition of socialism. Their only common feature is using the label "socialist" for themselves, under any interpretation. There are few, if any, definitions of socialism that could fit all the countries on this list. However, most definitions of socialism fit at least some of these countries at some points in their histories.
 
Just what I thought! :lol:

Well smarty pants tell me which Socialist country is to your liking.
 
Fade said:
Just what I thought! :lol:
Of course you did, you set it up that way.

So, have you stopped beating your wife yet - yes or no?

Well smarty pants tell me which Socialist country is to your liking.

I lived in the UK in the 70s. The UK doesn't have a constitution and has never declared itself Socialist, but at that time the government owned a car company, an airline, the buses and tube and rail, hospitals, power and water, sewage facilities and the prisons. I liked it. It wasn't a bad time to live there.
 
metalman said:
you're still a douche bag!
Godwin's Law ad Hominem: fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole.
Here we see a personal attack and a wrong definition. Wow congrats!

Godwin's Law (follow the link) states As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
 
faethor said:
metalman said:
you're still a douche bag!
Godwin's Law ad Hominem: fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole.
Here we see a personal attack and a wrong definition. Wow congrats!

Godwin's Law states As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Personal attack???
I'm using the ad hominem abusive argument, just like you did.

you're still a douche bag

Since Fluffy brought up the topic, he's who you should have replied to,

At least now you're attempting some sort of argument, stating a premises and a conclusion, but making another argument by fallacy, Ignorantio Elenchi: Godwin's Rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases in direct proportion to the length of the discussion. Godwin's Rule does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as prediction.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Well, you're starting to get more nuance but you haven't grasped some fundamentals yet.
metalman said:
capitalism: the social system in which property is privately owned, and the government's function is restricted to the protection of individual rights.
Capitalism is a system in which those that own sufficient resources can get other people without resources to work for them so that they don't have to and by so doing can gain control over more resources. A government which protects this system is eventually owned by it thus it develops into fascism.

Nazi party platform adopted at Munich said:
We ask that the government undertake the obligation above all of providing citizens with adequate opportunities for employment and earning a living.

The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within its confines and for the good of all. Therefore, we demand an end to the power of the financial interests.

We demand profit sharing in big business.

We demand a broad extension of care for the aged.

In order to make possible to every capable and industrious [citizen] the attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around enlargement of our entire system of public education...We demand the education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents...

The government must undertake the improvement of public health -- by the greatest possible support for all clubs concerned with the physical education of youth.

[We] combat the...materialistic spirit withn and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only proceed from within on the foundation of The Common Good Before the Individual Good .

Ernst Huber said:
"Private property" as conceived under liberalistic economic order was a reversal of the true concept of property. This "private proprerty" represented the right of the individual to manage and to speculate with inherited or acquired property as he pleased, without regard to the general interests...German socialism had to overcome this "private", that is, unrestrained and irresponsible view of property. All property is common property. The owner is bound by the people and the Reich to the responsible management of his goods. His legal position is only justified when he satisfies this responsibility to the community.

Joseph Goebbels said:
To be a socialist is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole.

Hitler to Rauschning said:
I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate to admit. The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and penpushers have timidly begun ... I had only to develop logically what Social Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize its evolution within the framework of democracy. National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with the democratic order.

The philosophical difference between fascists and socialists is minor. Each rejects the efficacy of individual reason, affirms the principle of altruism, and upholds a form of collectivism.
 
Fluffy squirmed:
I lived in the UK in the 70s. The UK doesn't have a constitution and has never declared itself Socialist, but at that time bla, bla, bla.
----------------------------

Like your Socialism in small doses do you?

Time to turn in your handbook McDeath. :)
 
metalman said:
Personal attack???
I'm using the ad hominem abusive argument, just like you did.

you're still a douche bag

Since Fluffy brought up the topic, he's who you should have replied to,

At least now you're attempting some sort of argument, stating a premises and a conclusion, but making another argument by fallacy, Ignorantio Elenchi: Godwin's Rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases in direct proportion to the length of the discussion. Godwin's Rule does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as prediction.
Read what you wrote and read your inconsistencies. You state at the end that Godwin's rule makes no reference to appropriateness of the claim. But instead predicts that that arguement will tend to Nazis and Hitler. We see you bringing it to it's naturally predicted Godwin State as you interjected Hitler into the mix. So my statement wasn't an attack it was noting that you brought the Gowin condition forth. And is accurate.

You may apologize there is no shame.
 
faethor said:
metalman said:
Personal attack???
I'm using the ad hominem abusive argument, just like you did.

you're still a douche bag

Since Fluffy brought up the topic, he's who you should have replied to,

At least now you're attempting some sort of argument, stating a premises and a conclusion, but making another argument by fallacy, Ignorantio Elenchi: Godwin's Rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases in direct proportion to the length of the discussion. Godwin's Rule does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as prediction.
Read what you wrote and read your inconsistencies. You state at the end that Godwin's rule makes no reference to appropriateness of the claim. But instead predicts that that arguement will tend to Nazis and Hitler. We see you bringing it to it's naturally predicted Godwin State as you interjected Hitler into the mix. So my statement wasn't an attack it was noting that you brought the Gowin condition forth. And is accurate.

You may apologize there is no shame.

Fluffy interjected Hitler into the mix, I replied to his post.

You may kiss my ass.

you're still a douche bag
 
Fade said:
Fluffy squirmed:
I lived in the UK in the 70s. The UK doesn't have a constitution and has never declared itself Socialist, but at that time bla, bla, bla.
----------------------------

Like your Socialism in small doses do you?

Time to turn in your handbook McDeath. :)

Fluffy just likes the theory, not the implementation.
 
Fade said:
Fluffy squirmed:
I lived in the UK in the 70s. The UK doesn't have a constitution and has never declared itself Socialist, but at that time bla, bla, bla.
----------------------------

Like your Socialism in small doses do you?

Time to turn in your handbook McDeath. :)

I see that you tend to lean toward the anti-social.
 
metalman said:
Fade said:
Fluffy squirmed:
I lived in the UK in the 70s. The UK doesn't have a constitution and has never declared itself Socialist, but at that time bla, bla, bla.
----------------------------

Like your Socialism in small doses do you?

Time to turn in your handbook McDeath. :)

Fluffy just likes the theory, not the implementation.

You don't have any idea what Fluffy likes or doesn't like because you don't pay attention.
 
metalman said:
you're still a douche bag

Fluffy interjected Hitler into the mix, I replied to his post.

You may kiss my ass.

you're still a douche bag

You are clearly speaking in anger and you higher functions must be taking a break. Your repeated use of the above phrase is clearly ad hominem and you continue to restate it despite the fact that you must know this. On many sites you'd have been modded to oblivion by now. Personally I'm not a fan of such moderation and I'm glad to see it doesn't happen much around here, but out of respect for your own self, you should get a grip.
 
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