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Sony Entertainment of Japan has not seen the final PS4 He stated the controller was finalized a day prior to the show.
Latest Xbox 3 rumors
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PS4 is using a unified GDDR5 RAM with 176GB/s. The Xbox3 rumors say DDR3 which is close to 80GB/s. Though interesting recent rumors are saying the Xbox3 also has 32MB of 170GB/s FASTRAM.
The Xbox3 appears to be more and more Amigaesque. There are seperate move engines which are 4 fast DMA loads which shunt between the fast and slow RAM. A subset of the SuperAgnus comes to mind. Including some interesting display plane handling - 3 display plane interleving. SuperDenise but in HighDef?
The Xbox3 appears to be more and more Amigaesque. There are seperate move engines which are 4 fast DMA loads which shunt between the fast and slow RAM. A subset of the SuperAgnus comes to mind. Including some interesting display plane handling - 3 display plane interleving. SuperDenise but in HighDef?
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It can calculate the environment for a great deal AND execute those navigation/balancing algorithms.
But eh, kudos to those developers
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@Glaucus,
I think we're seeing the big boys (Microsoft) see the approach of the little guys (Steam and Ouya) coming onto the market. The reason I say this is for the next week Microsoft has taken many of their AAA games, Halo3 for example, and marked them down to $10. Also many others are $3 to $5 each, Bioshock for example. The negative here is on the brick and mortar retailers, Gamestop and Best Buy for example, who sells the used copies of these games for higher prices than the Microsoft Live Store is. Though the sale is short lived. I suspect we'll see more of these in this and next gen. The Big Boys won't be letting the little players outpace them.
...
@Thread,
Here's something I've thought of ... What if Microsoft switches the console model of charging? Think about your cellphone. You pay $99 for a $5xx cellphone. The carrier hopes to make it up by charging you each month for service with a 2 year contract. Microsoft makes about $1Billion a year off of Xbox Live. Why not feed into a model where the brand new console is 'free' (okay a low cost) and instead you pay a monthly or yearly fee? Afterall, Xbox Live is already a fee per year. It wouldn't be much of a change to increase the price a bit and mark down the console?
Imagine if the consumer has the choice of Microsoft console for $159 plus pay on a monthly basis about $12/month but a requirement of a 2 year period? After 2 years one would be about $450 into Microsoft. OR they could do the slightly more powerful Sony PS4 for $450 upfront and get online for free (assuming they can keep that model). Which would consumers want? I think many people would prefer that $150 upfront model.
Though that brings into question what will Sony do? Microsoft and Sony have about an equal number of consoles on the market and Sony is not bringing in most of that $1Billion per year because they are online for free? If I were Sony I'd charge something for online service. You could be 50% of the Xbox Live cost, sell yourself as the cheaper alternative (because you are), and likely make more money. Somehow I wouldn't bet that the PS4 will be a 'cellphone' model and may actually charge a bit for online pay. Without it they'll not afford all the new features they say they're bringing.
I think we're seeing the big boys (Microsoft) see the approach of the little guys (Steam and Ouya) coming onto the market. The reason I say this is for the next week Microsoft has taken many of their AAA games, Halo3 for example, and marked them down to $10. Also many others are $3 to $5 each, Bioshock for example. The negative here is on the brick and mortar retailers, Gamestop and Best Buy for example, who sells the used copies of these games for higher prices than the Microsoft Live Store is. Though the sale is short lived. I suspect we'll see more of these in this and next gen. The Big Boys won't be letting the little players outpace them.
...
@Thread,
Here's something I've thought of ... What if Microsoft switches the console model of charging? Think about your cellphone. You pay $99 for a $5xx cellphone. The carrier hopes to make it up by charging you each month for service with a 2 year contract. Microsoft makes about $1Billion a year off of Xbox Live. Why not feed into a model where the brand new console is 'free' (okay a low cost) and instead you pay a monthly or yearly fee? Afterall, Xbox Live is already a fee per year. It wouldn't be much of a change to increase the price a bit and mark down the console?
Imagine if the consumer has the choice of Microsoft console for $159 plus pay on a monthly basis about $12/month but a requirement of a 2 year period? After 2 years one would be about $450 into Microsoft. OR they could do the slightly more powerful Sony PS4 for $450 upfront and get online for free (assuming they can keep that model). Which would consumers want? I think many people would prefer that $150 upfront model.
Though that brings into question what will Sony do? Microsoft and Sony have about an equal number of consoles on the market and Sony is not bringing in most of that $1Billion per year because they are online for free? If I were Sony I'd charge something for online service. You could be 50% of the Xbox Live cost, sell yourself as the cheaper alternative (because you are), and likely make more money. Somehow I wouldn't bet that the PS4 will be a 'cellphone' model and may actually charge a bit for online pay. Without it they'll not afford all the new features they say they're bringing.
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Faethor, that wouldn't surprise (about the subscription fees). They're already trying that with Office and so is Adobe with their Creative Suite. But to do so they've also been making it very unpalatable to do things the old school way - buy out prices are through the roof (at least for Adobe). This would be a transitional period where the monthly rates will be low, however, once they convert everyone over, they'll have very little holding them back from creeping up the monthly rates. Sorta like cellular providers. Ya, sounds like a conspiracy but so far that's how it's panning out.
Btw, the PS3 has had a for-pay PlayStation Network where you can pay $50 a year so that you can buy games for a slight discount. Paid members also get more access to free demos and betas and other goodies. So far I saw little reason to pay for that and I hope most others feel the same but I doubt it. Personally I think that software as a service is a bad idea for everyone except those who sell it. I also hate the walled garden but it's pretty much a sure thing for all consoles, even OUYA.
Btw, the PS3 has had a for-pay PlayStation Network where you can pay $50 a year so that you can buy games for a slight discount. Paid members also get more access to free demos and betas and other goodies. So far I saw little reason to pay for that and I hope most others feel the same but I doubt it. Personally I think that software as a service is a bad idea for everyone except those who sell it. I also hate the walled garden but it's pretty much a sure thing for all consoles, even OUYA.
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Walled gardens aren't always equal. We'll have multidevice gaming within the same walled gardens. So while it is walled it won't feel as constrained.
And can we blame Apple for their walled popularity.of the iPads? Clearly Apple ends up with the Jobsian owning the consumer and not the Woz's approach of open and accessibility that was the initial establishment of Apple.
And can we blame Apple for their walled popularity.of the iPads? Clearly Apple ends up with the Jobsian owning the consumer and not the Woz's approach of open and accessibility that was the initial establishment of Apple.
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There may be a catch in the PS4 playing used games
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PS4 connectivity
"According to Yoshida, the PS4 will be all about connectivity. This means that social aspects will be included in the gaming process through one simple application download, where users with iOS and Android devices can easily connect. Having access to the PS4 from anywhere on any device can help in other areas of gaming too, such as downloading a large, 50GB game. If one were to do this at home, it would take hours before the gamer could actually play. But if they connected to PS4 while still at work and started the download then, it will be ready for them once they arrive."
--- Really? Perhaps Japanese workplaces are different. In the last decade all my employers wanted access to gaming blocked at the Corporate Firewall level. So, the connectivity would have to come via mobile phones / mobile devices that are not on the corporate network. Additionally, Sony has done lots of repeating iOS and Android - there is the Windows ecosystem out there. It is certainly one of the largest ecosystems in play. I hope Sony doesn't do harm to itself by not considering how your Win8/Win7 platform will work with their system. Microsoft has reached out to iOS and Android devices with Xbox Live Smartglass. So they seemingly get that other OSes are in play here. Also what about TV sets themselves? Samsung SmartTV app? Is Sony going to have Sony SmartTV type of application for gaming? That way if one is in a different room of the home they can reach over to their gaming through another device?
I'm liking Sony's ambition. Though reading hardware isn't yet finalized, therefore not in production, makes me a bit worried about how ready they will truly be for Holiday 2013 launch. Maybe they'll go the Apple route - launch at high prices and cut down about 6 months later when manufacturing catches up. I hope not because we know Nintendo won't rest on their laurels. And if Microsoft will have a wider availability is still an unknown. If they can't either perhaps Sony is safe.
.. It seems to me that Sony is repeating their PS3 launch? Announce some fantastic features. But, can they really ship those on day 1? Or is a slow growth over a couple of year plan? Microsoft already does most of the stuff Sony announced in their current gen. So is the PS4 playing from the backfield?
"According to Yoshida, the PS4 will be all about connectivity. This means that social aspects will be included in the gaming process through one simple application download, where users with iOS and Android devices can easily connect. Having access to the PS4 from anywhere on any device can help in other areas of gaming too, such as downloading a large, 50GB game. If one were to do this at home, it would take hours before the gamer could actually play. But if they connected to PS4 while still at work and started the download then, it will be ready for them once they arrive."
--- Really? Perhaps Japanese workplaces are different. In the last decade all my employers wanted access to gaming blocked at the Corporate Firewall level. So, the connectivity would have to come via mobile phones / mobile devices that are not on the corporate network. Additionally, Sony has done lots of repeating iOS and Android - there is the Windows ecosystem out there. It is certainly one of the largest ecosystems in play. I hope Sony doesn't do harm to itself by not considering how your Win8/Win7 platform will work with their system. Microsoft has reached out to iOS and Android devices with Xbox Live Smartglass. So they seemingly get that other OSes are in play here. Also what about TV sets themselves? Samsung SmartTV app? Is Sony going to have Sony SmartTV type of application for gaming? That way if one is in a different room of the home they can reach over to their gaming through another device?
I'm liking Sony's ambition. Though reading hardware isn't yet finalized, therefore not in production, makes me a bit worried about how ready they will truly be for Holiday 2013 launch. Maybe they'll go the Apple route - launch at high prices and cut down about 6 months later when manufacturing catches up. I hope not because we know Nintendo won't rest on their laurels. And if Microsoft will have a wider availability is still an unknown. If they can't either perhaps Sony is safe.
.. It seems to me that Sony is repeating their PS3 launch? Announce some fantastic features. But, can they really ship those on day 1? Or is a slow growth over a couple of year plan? Microsoft already does most of the stuff Sony announced in their current gen. So is the PS4 playing from the backfield?
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I don't think this will be PS3 all over again. The ps3 had some serious problems early on and they were forced to redesign it just before launch, causing delays. And the delay was really the only real serious issue that gave the 360 a full year head start. If they can just release a working console this year the PS4 will be fine - even if some key features are added in a software update months later. The interesting thing is that the PS4 will be competing with the PS3 as Sony is likely to continue selling it for years to come (as they did with the PS2). And with no backwards compatibility, I'm not likely to abandon the PS3 right away either.
As for the iPhone/Android apps, well, I don't blame them. The Windows phone market is tiny, competing with BlackBerry. But I imagine that Sony will have a web interface for their store along with a mobile web interface for non iPhone/Android mobile devices. Sony obviously wants to push a PS4 store onto their very own phones, and it would be stupid to ignore the iPhone, but the rest of the mobile market isn't big enough to worry about I think. MS entered the race too late and are likely to end up dead last. I think BlackBerry has a better shot at being in the top 3 than MS right now. And MS should also be worried about the Ubuntu and Firefox phones coming out soon.
As for the iPhone/Android apps, well, I don't blame them. The Windows phone market is tiny, competing with BlackBerry. But I imagine that Sony will have a web interface for their store along with a mobile web interface for non iPhone/Android mobile devices. Sony obviously wants to push a PS4 store onto their very own phones, and it would be stupid to ignore the iPhone, but the rest of the mobile market isn't big enough to worry about I think. MS entered the race too late and are likely to end up dead last. I think BlackBerry has a better shot at being in the top 3 than MS right now. And MS should also be worried about the Ubuntu and Firefox phones coming out soon.
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Smartphones and mobile devices are an interesting market to watch. Apple has slid their % marketshare over the past year. This fall we saw Android sales slid for the first time. Blackberry is going no where. Windows Phone continues to increase and is now ahead of Blackberry in sales. Many industry analysts see large gains for Microsoft in the next 5 years. Additionally, I think we in the West are discounting the East's impact on smartphone and driving the direction. And certainly all companies are changing tactics and strategy. A billion phones for a billion Chinese is going to impact us here in the West.
I think Microsoft's approach is indeed interesting. Write once and run anywhere is what they hope to achieve. Likely Windows Blue this fall will be another step in that direction.
For Android, Samsung is kicking some butt - http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/samsungs-android-dominance-worries-google And I could be wrong but I see Unbuntu and Firefox more competition for Android than Microsoft. Ubuntu used to be fairly good a few years ago. I haven't really thought much of the splintering over the last few years. Did they get rid of Daemons?
Though Microsoft will never entirely lose on phones. Apple, Androids, and Blackberries use Microsoft patents and pay various royalties and licensing fees. Microsoft could just sit on their laurels and collect the checks.
I think Microsoft's approach is indeed interesting. Write once and run anywhere is what they hope to achieve. Likely Windows Blue this fall will be another step in that direction.
For Android, Samsung is kicking some butt - http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/samsungs-android-dominance-worries-google And I could be wrong but I see Unbuntu and Firefox more competition for Android than Microsoft. Ubuntu used to be fairly good a few years ago. I haven't really thought much of the splintering over the last few years. Did they get rid of Daemons?
Though Microsoft will never entirely lose on phones. Apple, Androids, and Blackberries use Microsoft patents and pay various royalties and licensing fees. Microsoft could just sit on their laurels and collect the checks.
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One indicator I'm looking at is who is building a Windows phone. So far only Nokia has gone all in on MS phones. Samsung and HTC have so far been half assed about it and they both seem to be very much focused on Android. Sure MS will have it's following, but I believe that BlackBerry still has it's loyal followers as well. There's also a chance that BlackBerry may at one point enter the Android ecosystem, meaning, native Android apps running under a BlackBerry OS.
I think Google should be a little concerned about Samsung, but not overly. Even Samsung can't be the next big thing forever. I really like HTC's latest gen of phones and the HTC One sounds exciting. Motorola's X Phone should be interesting as well, Google has promised something truly special with that phone. Can't wait to see what's in store.
I think Google should be a little concerned about Samsung, but not overly. Even Samsung can't be the next big thing forever. I really like HTC's latest gen of phones and the HTC One sounds exciting. Motorola's X Phone should be interesting as well, Google has promised something truly special with that phone. Can't wait to see what's in store.
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Hardware has become such a commodity I really see a manufacture making a handset and the platform being neutral to Windows Phone or Firefox or Android. The only real, special, one is Apple as they want to own everything themselves. It'll be interesting to see how commodity impacts the iPhone's future. Even now it appears Apple is not selling to new users to but a decreasing existing user base who want the newer item. But, BMW has it's market not everyone buys a Honda.
The one item I dislike about Blackberry is everything runs through their servers. So not only are Blackberries impacted by providers and the corporate network (like all other phones) they have an additional point of failure. We've seen outages at Blackberry impacting a large number of users. IMO they have the 'cloud'/SaaS model in the wrong place. If they survive with an Android emulator I'd have to wonder what the real advantage of a Blackberry would be? Name only? Blackberry has some patients which Google, Microsoft, and Apple would likely fight over if they decided to shut the company down. Personally, I like QNX and wished it could have been the newer AmigaOS.
The question with Samsung is how popular Tizen can become. Samsung also makes processors. So in a way they could own the whole ecosystem similar to Apple. But, with Tizen allow others into their ecosystem as well. I'd think this should worry Google a bit.
As for HTC I like their phones too. I have an HTC 8x it's a nice feeling/fit device. Now to buy a Qi Wireless charger so I never have to plug it in again.
The one item I dislike about Blackberry is everything runs through their servers. So not only are Blackberries impacted by providers and the corporate network (like all other phones) they have an additional point of failure. We've seen outages at Blackberry impacting a large number of users. IMO they have the 'cloud'/SaaS model in the wrong place. If they survive with an Android emulator I'd have to wonder what the real advantage of a Blackberry would be? Name only? Blackberry has some patients which Google, Microsoft, and Apple would likely fight over if they decided to shut the company down. Personally, I like QNX and wished it could have been the newer AmigaOS.
The question with Samsung is how popular Tizen can become. Samsung also makes processors. So in a way they could own the whole ecosystem similar to Apple. But, with Tizen allow others into their ecosystem as well. I'd think this should worry Google a bit.
As for HTC I like their phones too. I have an HTC 8x it's a nice feeling/fit device. Now to buy a Qi Wireless charger so I never have to plug it in again.
On the PS4:
You say redesign... I say actually design. Much like the PS4, so far.
When has Sony ADDED features to a product? They're more known for releasing something half-assed, then taking the feature away. Especially on the PS3, which is product most relevant to judging the PS4. The PS3 saw the removal of PS2 support, Linux support, etc...
On Smartphones:
Yeah, they're not queuing up to be Microsoft's phone partner, that's for sure. I don't think I can blame any vendors on that one, either. Nokia did it because they realized they were already in deep trouble, and went for the hail mary play. The rest of the vendors will do a small play to hedge their bets on Android, but that's about it.
Blackberry has loyal followers? Seriously? Where?
Exactly. And that name is pretty much mud, anyhow. Blackberry lost its foothold on business when Blackberry Enterprise Server got displaced by ActiveSync. Blackberry lost its customer appeal when Blackberry users were trapped using a malfunctioning rollerball or microscopic touchpad while everyone else had touchscreens. And, as an extra black eye, they've had multiple days of service outage with their own servers crashing, rendering the phones into feature phones for days at a time. The only Blackberry users I've met in the past couple years are the ones who are waiting to get an upgrade to something else. The only good reputation Blackberry had going for it was a good keyboard. Guess what they dropped from their newest phones? Derp!
I definitely don't see Microsoft playing along. At least not under their current corporate direction. (Of course, one could question how much longer Ballmer will be running the show... But this is a digression for a different thread.) In short, Microsoft is currently obsessed with becoming a product manufacturer like Apple. They're just not going to release Windows Phone as a software. Even if it made business sense to. (Which I'd question, as well.)
I could maybe see a single Ubuntu/Firefox/Android hardware. Except for the carriers. They want exclusive control. And they want it because of lock-in and cost savings on support. They can't lock down a phone you can freely load different OS on. And a phone that can run three OS can cost nearly 3x to support. The carriers just aren't going to bite on that. And if your phone doesn't get in with the carriers, you're going to have trouble getting anywhere.
You say redesign... I say actually design. Much like the PS4, so far.
When has Sony ADDED features to a product? They're more known for releasing something half-assed, then taking the feature away. Especially on the PS3, which is product most relevant to judging the PS4. The PS3 saw the removal of PS2 support, Linux support, etc...
On Smartphones:
Yeah, they're not queuing up to be Microsoft's phone partner, that's for sure. I don't think I can blame any vendors on that one, either. Nokia did it because they realized they were already in deep trouble, and went for the hail mary play. The rest of the vendors will do a small play to hedge their bets on Android, but that's about it.
Blackberry has loyal followers? Seriously? Where?
Exactly. And that name is pretty much mud, anyhow. Blackberry lost its foothold on business when Blackberry Enterprise Server got displaced by ActiveSync. Blackberry lost its customer appeal when Blackberry users were trapped using a malfunctioning rollerball or microscopic touchpad while everyone else had touchscreens. And, as an extra black eye, they've had multiple days of service outage with their own servers crashing, rendering the phones into feature phones for days at a time. The only Blackberry users I've met in the past couple years are the ones who are waiting to get an upgrade to something else. The only good reputation Blackberry had going for it was a good keyboard. Guess what they dropped from their newest phones? Derp!
I definitely don't see Microsoft playing along. At least not under their current corporate direction. (Of course, one could question how much longer Ballmer will be running the show... But this is a digression for a different thread.) In short, Microsoft is currently obsessed with becoming a product manufacturer like Apple. They're just not going to release Windows Phone as a software. Even if it made business sense to. (Which I'd question, as well.)
I could maybe see a single Ubuntu/Firefox/Android hardware. Except for the carriers. They want exclusive control. And they want it because of lock-in and cost savings on support. They can't lock down a phone you can freely load different OS on. And a phone that can run three OS can cost nearly 3x to support. The carriers just aren't going to bite on that. And if your phone doesn't get in with the carriers, you're going to have trouble getting anywhere.
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Not sure I follow.
Yes, Sony did some crummy things. I was pretty upset when they removed Linux support (never had a ps2 so that didn't bother me as much, but I did have a "fat" ps3 that originally played ps2 games) and that changed how I thought of the PS3 and of Sony. But to say that they never added a feature is wrong, they certainly did. Even in game play they added the Move controllers. That's a new feature is it not? But in the software side of things, they made some major improvements to the what they already offered. In particular, they added things like Netflix and CinemaNow and totally revamped their store, etc. They also added "channels" where you could watch live NHL games.
Maybe it's a Canada thing? Doesn't the POTUS still use a BlackBerry? Ya most BB users want an upgrade, but that's mostly because BB hasn't released anything new in years. That's about to change. It is make or break for BB, if it doesn't sell really well they are likely to be bought up by a major player. Maybe they'll be the next Commodore Business Machines, remember those guys?
Anyway, as for the PS4 launch, I still think Sony played it right and it's the gaming press and community that has gone completely bonkers over the "no box" issue. And I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.
Sony didn’t actually show us the PS4’s casing… So what?
The thing is, the box is not important. The controller is, and what goes in the box is, but the box itself is NOT IMPORTANT! So unimportant that Sony has changed the PS3 box more than once and most people haven't noticed nor do they care. But the real kicker here is that this isn't the first time Sony announced a console without showing the console box. When it launched the PS2, this is all you got to see:
How many people freaked out about installing a pyramid around their TV? I'm guessing none.
What I was meaning was that you say Sony had to "redesign" the PS3 late. I say, they never had one then, either. They just had to design it late.
I knew you'd grab that Ars story. I just read it before browsing back here, myself. And I totally agree, not showing the case is pretty much a non-issue.
But, also from that story....
Personally, I'll go against Kyle here... I'm not willing to trust Sony that there's a system behind the curtain making it all work. I honestly don't think Sony showed that the PS4 is a real console, yet. All they actually showed was some recycled development code supposedly running on a slightly hacked PC hidden somewhere. And that's if there was actually code running, at all. Which, honestly, is probably unlikely, as it's just a marketing exercise, and they didn't let anyone play. The only thing the announcement actually did was confirm that they are planning on building a PS4 someday, with specs similar to the next XBox Microsoft hasn't announced, yet. (shrug)
I may well eat my hat in 9 months, but I still highly doubt there's a PS4 anywhere near ready to ship for Holidays 2013.
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I remember reading about the early days of the Amiga and how the engineers had the custom chips only on breadboards and parts of the OS was written at the trade shows. Ah the good old days....
Nah, I'm pretty confident the PS4 was in the works years ago. If they don't have a console near completion today, then they won't have a console ready for years. I see little benefit in Sony planting the seeds of their own ridicule right now. Sure they do piss of their customers, but customers are people who already bought the product. Sony however is very good at acquiring new customers which means that they know a thing or two about marketing and delivering.
As for there not being a ps3, that's a bold statement to make. They did demo a ps3 with dual hdmi and other fancy features. It was said that top dogs at Sony freaked out when they saw the cost of production vs the sale price and ordered a drastic cost reduction. Not sure what info you have that counters that but I have to say so far you're not very convincing.
Anyway, there's also a real possibility that Sony told no lies about the PS4 and may still miss the 2013 launch. Anything could happen, including a natural disaster that wipes out some key factory in Asia. Making any predictions into the future, even one's own intentions, is a bit bold. I think they're wise to keep things as vague as possible. The only reason they made an announcement at all is to get people excited about it. It's just the hype machine.
Nah, I'm pretty confident the PS4 was in the works years ago. If they don't have a console near completion today, then they won't have a console ready for years. I see little benefit in Sony planting the seeds of their own ridicule right now. Sure they do piss of their customers, but customers are people who already bought the product. Sony however is very good at acquiring new customers which means that they know a thing or two about marketing and delivering.
As for there not being a ps3, that's a bold statement to make. They did demo a ps3 with dual hdmi and other fancy features. It was said that top dogs at Sony freaked out when they saw the cost of production vs the sale price and ordered a drastic cost reduction. Not sure what info you have that counters that but I have to say so far you're not very convincing.
Anyway, there's also a real possibility that Sony told no lies about the PS4 and may still miss the 2013 launch. Anything could happen, including a natural disaster that wipes out some key factory in Asia. Making any predictions into the future, even one's own intentions, is a bit bold. I think they're wise to keep things as vague as possible. The only reason they made an announcement at all is to get people excited about it. It's just the hype machine.
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All mobile platforms depend more and more on the cloud making us all vulnerable to those kinds of problems. BB in fact pioneered that and would of course be the ones to be first to deal with such issues. But messaging via SMS is likely to decline with time and more people will be using technologies like Skype, Google Talk, iMessage, etc. All of those have a central point of failure and I think it's kinda silly to classify BlackBerry's prior server outages as some kind fundamental flaw unique to BlackBerry.