#notmywar

redrumloa said:
One Fake News / propaganda after another. At this point if you read read or hear something, you have to assume it is 100% certified bullsh1t!
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1498715691205087232

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A good rule of thumb is to trust no source 100%. Reports from at least two separate and established news organisations is usually safe but even then not always. And if it's a video clip with a catption from tiktok, FB, Twitter, etc, it doesn't matter how many different accounts post it, take it with a pinch of salt at least until some established channels can verify it.
If you don't trust established channels, you really need to be prepared to do the research yourself (and I don't mean Qanon-style "do your own research" by watching more YouTube). I certainly don't have time - nor, in most cases, the resources - to properly research news claims, so I generally settle for the rule of two, outlined above, with the caveat that it can still be wrong.
 
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Robert said:
Well, I don't get the impression he has a death wish so it strikes me as unlikely.
The UK-based nuke-subs berth about 25 miles from my house so if it does come to that, things could get quite nasty round here.
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Don't worry. The subs can get out of the way. They'll be fine.
 
redrumloa said:
I've not seen or heard anything to justify the invasion. On the fringes I've heard conspiracy theories that I've not posted here. My only angle to this right now is sadness of the US no longer being a superpower.
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I've had a youtube sub to Patrick Lancaster (https://www.youtube.com/c/PatrickLancasterNewsToday/videos) since the he got to Donbass during the civil war in the east back in 2014 - he went in with Graham Philips. Philips is a bit smarmy but Lancaster seems tongue tied, a little overwrought but earnest. (viewer discretion is advised)
Ukraine forces (possibly more Azov than troops under actual Kiev control) have been shelling civilian settlements and infrastructure in the east for the past 8 years. In the weeks leading up to the invasion things were heating up along the DPR and LPR borders with an escalation of Ukrainian shelling of the ethnically Russian population in the Donbass.
The Ukrainian escalation of shelling and the Russian excercises and the movement of arms into Ukraine from the west all had a bit of the feeling big game of chicken. I wasn't surprised to see the recognition of DPR & LPR by Russia as a step under the circumstances (daring Ukraine to continue shelling what Russia just recognized as Russian territory). Nor am I particularly surprised that the forces shelling Donbass didn't stop. There has been some question over how much under government control some of those units really are (and I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of ambiguity wasn't deliberate). While fairly openly Nazi, the Azov Battalion and the Banderites (those that venerate Stepan Banderas) managed to grab a share of political power, and while there was a show of trying to reign them in and tame them, I think there's been a bit of a blind eye turned so long as they are only harrying the east and clearing the land of ethnic Russians.

Here's an old Guardian article from 2014 on the Azov battalions. A more recent article in the Nation from 2019 seems to show that the Azov contingent is perhaps stronger than it was. No little tiki torches for these guys, proper big flaming torches and Wolfsangle flags.

It's the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" like ISIS as long as they fight people we don't like.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Ukraine forces (possibly more Azov than troops under actual Kiev control) have been shelling civilian settlements and infrastructure in the east for the past 8 years. In the weeks leading up to the invasion things were heating up along the DPR and LPR borders with an escalation of Ukrainian shelling of the ethnically Russian population in the Donbass.
The Ukrainian escalation of shelling and the Russian excercises and the movement of arms into Ukraine from the west all had a bit of the feeling big game of chicken. I wasn't surprised to see the recognition of DPR & LPR by Russia as a step under the circumstances (daring Ukraine to continue shelling what Russia just recognized as Russian territory). Nor am I particularly surprised that the forces shelling Donbass didn't stop. There has been some question over how much under government control some of those units really are (and I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of ambiguity wasn't deliberate). While fairly openly Nazi, the Azov Battalion and the Banderites (those that venerate Stepan Banderas) managed to grab a share of political power, and while there was a show of trying to reign them in and tame them, I think there's been a bit of a blind eye turned so long as they are only harrying the east and clearing the land of ethnic Russians.
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For a response to someone mentioning justification for the invasion, that all reads a bit like:
Ukraine - Nazi sympathising murderers of Russian civilians who are getting exactly what they deserve.
Russia - totally understandable defenders of life, and even when they appear to deliberately kill civilians, it's not really their fault.
 
Robert said:
For a response to someone mentioning justification for the invasion, that all reads a bit like:
Ukraine - Nazi sympathising murderers of Russian civilians who are getting exactly what they deserve.
Russia - totally understandable defenders of life, and even when they appear to deliberately kill civilians, it's not really their fault.
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No. But it's been a long standing issue - from even before Maidan. The east was ethnically Russian and there has been an east west antagonism in the country for a long time. After the Maidan there was an immediate effort to push the ethnic Russians out of their home territories which is what sparked the civil war in the Donbass. Putin has been, for 8 years, pushing the Donbass region to stay in Ukraine and trying to get Ukraine to treat them as an autonomous zone inside Ukraine. It's been a thorn in both sides for a while.
No, it's not the fault of ordinary Ukrainians, and it's not a blank cheque for Russia, but America has been putting weapons into the hands of Nazis (just like they do with the Mujahdeem and ISIS when it suites them). It's just part of a long dirty game.
I don't know what Putin's calculation was - his statements indicate that he anticipated sanctions whether or not he acted so there was no reason not to act on that basis - he may have felt he needed to act to smash things up before even more lethal aid built up in the country and he may have acted simply because Ukraine was escalating attacks. It might be bad at home to get into a war, but it might be worse at home to let Kiev kill Russians without a response. I don't really know the politics of it but I don't feel alone in that.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
No, it's not the fault of ordinary Ukrainians, and it's not a blank cheque for Russia, but America has been putting weapons into the hands of Nazis (just like they do with the Mujahdeem and ISIS when it suites them). It's just part of a long dirty game.
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I'm aware of all that and I had some sympathy for Putin's position right up until his tanks started rolling into previously non-disputed territory. He's treated it exactly like the blank cheque you mention and can no longer be honestly defended.
 
Human Rights Watch are claiming Russian government censorship of media outlets, with use of the word "invasion" allegedly outlawed on pain of prosecution.
On February 26, 2022, Roskomnadzor, the state media and communications regulator, accused the 10 outlets of publishing “false information” about the war. The alleged false information includes information that the Russian military is shelling Ukrainian cities and causing civilian casualties and references to the armed conflict as “an attack,” “invasion,” or “declaration of war.” The Russian authorities appear to require outlets to refer to the war only as a “special operation in connection with the situation in Lugansk People’s Republic and Donetsk People’s Republic.”

“For the past decade, Russian authorities have used a web of vague laws and flimsy pretexts to intimidate and harass independent and dissenting voices,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “Now they are bluntly imposing censorship combined with a false narrative that they demand everyone must parrot.”

Roskomnadzor’s warning, published via the social media platform Telegram on February 26, was directed at the following outlets: Echo of Moscow, InoSMI, Media Zona, New Times, Dozhd, Svobodnay Pressa, Krym.Realii, Novaya Gazeta, Journalist, and Lenizdat. The authorities had earlier designated some of them as “foreign agent” media.
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I watched half an hour of "news" on Russia Today TV channel on Monday night. I thoroughly recommend it for an insight into the type of propaganda that doesn't get much mention on here.

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RT is still available on Freeview TV in the UK but YouTube are apparently blocking access. As of now, it's still on the platform.

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As of last night, RT has gone from Freeview, although the reason seems a bit more complex than the UK censoring it directly.
 
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Robert said:
Human Rights Watch are claiming Russian government censorship of media outlets, with use of the word "invasion" allegedly outlawed on pain of prosecution.

I watched half an hour of "news" on Russia Today TV channel on Monday night. I thoroughly recommend it for an insight into the type of propaganda that doesn't get much mention on here.

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RT is still available on Freeview TV in the UK but YouTube are apparently blocking access. As of now, it's still on the platform.
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Not surprised. It's not "invasion" when we do it either. It's usually something more like "action" or "response" or "operation".
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Not surprised. It's not "invasion" when we do it either. It's usually something more like "action" or "response" or "operation".
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The difference being the censorship is allegedly overt. Granted many corporate media will go along anyway but even amid all the tub-thumping during Iraq, most of the main UK outlets called it an invasion.
People regularly loose their nut over "censorship" by social media companies. I have my own issues with that but, regardless of pressure behind the scenes, it isn't overtly imposed by the state. And for that we should be relatively grateful.
 
Robert said:
The difference being the censorship is allegedly overt. Granted many corporate media will go along anyway but even amid all the tub-thumping during Iraq, most of the main UK outlets called it an invasion.
People regularly loose their nut over "censorship" by social media companies. I have my own issues with that but, regardless of pressure behind the scenes, it isn't overtly imposed by the state. And for that we should be relatively grateful.
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It seems to be in Canada. The CBC is government funded and fully politicized by Harper. Trudeau was happy not to fix that. In 2019, the federal government put up a $600M fund to "help" struggling media over the following 5 years. Lots of snouts in the trough. More money went out during covid. Coverage is largely lock step and friendly. At least I presume it still is. I've largely given up on the news in the past year.
 
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