Is Obama trying to spark a nuclear WW3?

[redrumloa]

Nuclear-capable B-2 bombers drop dummy munitions on South Korean island during joint military drills.

Bruce Klingner, a former Korea Branch chief for the CIA, said the B-2 could penetrate North Korea at a time of war.

"Given North Korea's increasing threats against South Korea and the United States, including threats of nuclear annihilation, this is meant to deter and send a message that the United States is prepared to respond if things get hot," said Bruce Klingner, a senior research fellow for Northeast Asia at the Heritage Foundation.

The flight also signals to U.S. ally South Korea that the United States intends to fulfill its treaty obligations to defend it if necessary, Klingner said.

North Korea has threatened nuclear strikes on Washington and Seoul in recent weeks. It said Wednesday there was no need for communication in a situation "where a war may break out at any moment." This month, it announced that it considers void the armistice that ended the Korean War in 1953.

Where is CNN's (Clinton news Network) 24/7 coverage of Code Pink? Where is the Whyzzat left outrage? Oh, wait, Obama is a black democrat.

 

[robert l. bentham]

Bruce Klingner, a senior research fellow for Northeast Asia at the Heritage Foundation

after twenty years of listening to neocon bugga bugg booo... i'm almost embarrassed you posted that... c'mon red

 

[Glaucus]

As far as I know, N. Korea has no real rapid response nuclear capabilities. The US most certainly has Ohio class submarines parked of their coast. Advantage: US.

It's really unlikely they'd use a B-52 to drop the bomb, most likely it'll be launched by sub or some other aircraft never flying over N. Korea itself. However, the B-52 is a legendary piece of hardware from the cold war days and something that can easily be seen and understood by anyone. It's purely a symbolic gesture possibly intended more for the South Koreans than the North. If the North Korean leadership doesn't fully understand that it'll take only one wrong move for their entire nation to be nothing but a memory, then I feel sorry for the poor people of the North.

 

[Glaucus]

I should also add that South Korea is openly talking about building their own nuclear arsenal. I get the feeling that the US is showing off it's nuclear deterrent mostly so the South Koreans feel secure enough so as not to build their own nukes. And overall that's probably a wise move.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

North Korea only wants a bomb to discourage other countries from interfering with its affairs. I think that the US just wants to point out that South Korea is a US affair.

 

[faethor]

I find the thread title comment a sick joke.

Flash back, a decade now, to 2002. The Republicans, most Dems, and ALL the press beat the war drums to do a 'pre-emptive' attack on Iraq. It was a joke, we knew there were no WMDs. All the reports said so. And even if there was nukes Iraq had no missile technology of reaching much further than Israel.

Zoom back to present day. We have North Korea who has conducted 3 unapproved nuclear tests. We know they have nukes. They 've conducted missile tests and launched into space. They can hit Japan and if they can get into space the US mainland is not too difficult. But, somehow flying planes and showing them we're ready if they press the issue is now the USA pushing the button on WWIII?

It's so twisted upside down in rationality are the right-wing. At least the centrists (aka Dems) are a bit more rational and realize we shouldn't just ignore a rogue nation go unchecked with known nukes and space capabilities.

...Where is the outrage? No nukes and no threat - outrage was unjust and treasonist. Nukes - lack of outrage is unjust? Right-wingers your logic is so fucked up.

 

[redrumloa]

I find the thread title comment a sick joke.

Flash back, a decade now, to 2002. The Republicans, most Dems, and ALL the press beat the war drums to do a 'pre-emptive' attack on Iraq. It was a joke, we knew there were no WMDs. All the reports said so. And even if there was nukes Iraq had no missile technology of reaching much further than Israel.

Zoom back to present day. We have North Korea who has conducted 3 unapproved nuclear tests. We know they have nukes. They 've conducted missile tests and launched into space. They can hit Japan and if they can get into space the US mainland is not too difficult. But, somehow flying planes and showing them we're ready if they press the issue is now the USA pushing the button on WWIII?

It's so twisted upside down in rationality are the right-wing. At least the centrists (aka Dems) are a bit more rational and realize we shouldn't just ignore a rogue nation go unchecked with known nukes and space capabilities.

...Where is the outrage? No nukes and no threat - outrage was unjust and treasonist. Nukes - lack of outrage is unjust? Right-wingers your logic is so fucked up.

Why exactly are you flashing back to 2002 and completely ignoring ~2006? The US is in Afghanistan taking out one terrorist organization (Taliban) and searching for another (Al Qaeda). You can't turn on the your TV without round the clock coverage of fringe left groups such as Code Pink protesting or Cindy Sheehan standing in front of the White House cursing George Bush. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan killed thousands and were ugly at times. The chain reaction from a single nuke being dropped could wipe out all of us.

 

[faethor]

Why exactly are you flashing back to 2002 and completely ignoring ~2006? The US is in Afghanistan taking out one terrorist organization (Taliban) and searching for another (Al Qaeda).

I see an important difference with Afghanistan. It was the location of the organization that drove US planes into US buildings killing US and other nations citizens. I see better parallels between Iraq, who didn't attack the us and who didn't have WMDs, and who we attacked VS North Korea, who didn't attack us but do have WMDs which can reach us, who we haven't attacked.

And if you are looking for protesters against war they always exist. It's simply a matter of if the press deems them news worthy or not. Here's an Anti-Korea War protest held about a week prior to your post. Did you bother to look beyond Fox for coverage?

The chain reaction from a single nuke being dropped could wipe out all of us.

Yes it could. Not surprising it was that exact argument that Republican War Mongers used to invade a country that had no frickin' nukes. Now you're arguing we shouldn't fly over South Korea because we should be afraid of the nukes in the North. What you'd be saying with this statement is 'Hey nations don't have a nuke then get one. Because if you do the USA will back down.' No one, yet, has said to invade the North. But, not having ships and military near by when we have a nation with nukes semi-threatening us would be stupid.

The only reason I can think that the right-wing wants to take a position of weakness and run away from North Korea is they'd rather make a bad call then have to step up, join Obama, and admit Obama is sometimes right. Come on Dudes North Korea is in no way our friend and it seems you like that Communist Dictator better than the majority elected President. Ya'll logic be broke.

 

[the_leander]

Chain reaction of what? China and Russia have all but washed their hands of nk. Chances are if the nk's did launch a nuke at Seoul it'd as likely as not be those two that turned the south into an island. China has billions in trade at stake and the only reason why they haven't gone in there themselves is the threat of having millions of refugees flooding the border and crashing their economy.

Possibly for the first time in history, America, China and Russia are on the same page when it comes to just about anything. North Korea's belligerence is a direct threat to their interests, both socially and economically and the increasingly unhinged rhetoric coming from Pyongyang has them all understandably nervous. If they can hit Tokyo, they can hit Beijing or any number of Russian military installations and frankly its only a matter of time before they threaten to do so as China and Russia continue to put distance between them.

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[FluffyMcDeath]

 

[Glaucus]

North Korea only wants a bomb to discourage other countries from interfering with its affairs. I think that the US just wants to point out that South Korea is a US affair.

It's way more complicated than that. China, Russia and even Japan need to be factored in.

The current N. Korean leadership are doing things a little differently from the prior regime. Before they would do something dramatic and get some kind of concession. Now they do something dramatic, make no demands and then follow it up with something even more dramatic. They've escalated themselves almost to the brink of nuclear war - a war they can't possibly benefit from and everyone knows it. Maybe they want to create a super crisis and then make some outrageous demand (like say, pull all US troops out of S. Korea). The one advantage Kim Jong-un might have could be that he doesn't tell his own people what's going on and thus it would be easier to save face when S. Korea + the rest of the world don't back down.

Basically, Kim Jong-un is exactly the kind of character you want to play poker against.

 

[Glaucus]

The other day I posted a trailer to the latest Metal Gear game and that got me thinking. That game may hold the answer to N. Korea. It's a solution possibly scarier than nuclear war and I'm not sure we have the technology for it yet, but we might.

We could FOXDIE the North Korean leadership. FOXDIE was a manufactured virus designed to target people based on DNA. Those targeted would die from heart attack and everyone else was completely unaffected. All you'd need is a reliable DNA source, like say, a famous basketball player visiting the North Korean leader.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Basically, Kim Jong-un is exactly the kind of character you want to play poker against.

Sometimes when you are being told that some world leader is crazy and doing all sorts of things that are insane, just sometimes, the people who are telling you that stuff are the ones trying to start a war.

 

[the_leander]

Sometimes when you are being told that some world leader is crazy and doing all sorts of things that are insane, just sometimes, the people who are telling you that stuff are the ones trying to start a war.

But mostly, its because the world leader with the nuclear arsenal is, in point of fact, stone cold nuts.

With the exception of the north, can you show any evidence that the Chinese, Russians, Japanese, South Koreans or the USA actually want a nuclear war?

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[FluffyMcDeath]

But mostly, its because the world leader with the nuclear arsenal is, in point of fact, stone cold nuts.

I don't think it's fair to say that Obama is nuts. It might have been fair to call the guys who were running Bush stone cold nuts, but the current administration is far more calculating calculated. North Korea is still a huge annoyance to the US. It's that little nubbin of dirt that prevents the US from being able to build military bases right on the borders of both China and Russia on the Pacific side. Sure, owning South Korea and Japan is great but being on the mainland right at the border would be just so much better logistically. The US knows it can beat the crap out of NK (and so does NK) so that's why the US acts so provocatively. They'd love for NK to try something - but having nuke capabilities complicates things. The US needs to demonize NK and scare the world about the WMD as they usually do before they take over a place. Maybe in the next few years they'll be able to deal with this pebble in the shoe of US monopolar power - but they do need to rattle out some more intelligence about NK's actual nuke capabilities - or maybe they already have evaluated the nuke threat as something they can accept so they are getting ready to go in. All they need is a new Gulf of Tonkin incident.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

With the exception of the north, can you show any evidence that the Chinese, Russians, Japanese, South Koreans or the USA actually want a nuclear war?

Nobody wants a nuclear war, least of all North Korea. NK knows they can't win one. NK nukes are only a bargaining chip to discourage attack. Even the mighty US has been trying to figure out, for decades, how to use nukes as a first strike weapon and they've got nowhere with this. All NK can do with a nuke is retaliate on principle. To use it as a first strike weapon is suicide. Even to retaliate with it is suicide, but it would hurt the US and make population a little gun shy and perhaps weaken them enough economically for China and Russia to take over the top spots. Of course, the only way this would work as a deterrent would be if you can project that you are either crazy enough or serious enough (both look the same I would guess) to use it.

 

[the_leander]

Nobody wants a nuclear war, least of all North Korea. NK knows they can't win one.

Do they though?

Serious question there. Decades of cult indoctrination from birth onwards with little or no real connection to the outside world, can you honestly say that they have the faculties to consider this possibility?

NK nukes are only a bargaining chip to discourage attack.

This is where your standpoint breaks down, as Glaucus said - they aren't demanding anything.

That is why China, Russia and SK are currently shitting themselves.

Even the mighty US has been trying to figure out, for decades, how to use nukes as a first strike weapon and they've got nowhere with this. All NK can do with a nuke is retaliate on principle. To use it as a first strike weapon is suicide. Even to retaliate with it is suicide, but it would hurt the US and make population a little gun shy and perhaps weaken them enough economically for China and Russia to take over the top spots. Of course, the only way this would work as a deterrent would be if you can project that you are either crazy enough or serious enough (both look the same I would guess) to use it.

I would point out that wars have started over far less in the past.

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[Glaucus]

Sometimes when you are being told that some world leader is crazy and doing all sorts of things that are insane, just sometimes, the people who are telling you that stuff are the ones trying to start a war.

Well, my point was that he was bluffing, and when it's obvious that someone is bluffing, playing poker against him is a lot more fun. Is N. Korea gonna intentionally start a war? Probably not. My guess is, like I already stated, that they want to manufacture a super crisis and then negotiate a super treaty/resolution/whatever that greatly favors them. I also don't think it'll work because N. Korea's hand is now weaker because of the nuclear arsenal. See, before they got the bomb they could threaten a really nasty conventional war. Now the US can threaten them with complete destruction. They'd be better of ditching their nukes and going back to threatening a really nasty conventional war which seems far more realistic and problematic.

Anyway, the real problem here is that we have two sworn enemies in very close proximity to each other. It'll only take one tiny mistake from the lowest of ranks, one unfortunate and unintentional fatality and we could have instant war before anyone knows what happened. This is the real danger here. North Korea should clearly understand this and also realize that from such a mistake they could all end up dead. However, they did one of the dumbest things imaginable: They severed their military hotline with the south. The very hotline they'd use to say "oops, that guy one of our guys just shot? That was an accident! Please don't start a war." Sure severing the line in the midst of a crisis gives the impression that they're nuts, but ya know what else? They really are nuts.

 

[Glaucus]

North Korea is still a huge annoyance to the US. It's that little nubbin of dirt that prevents the US from being able to build military bases right on the borders of both China and Russia on the Pacific side.

So in their bid to box China in, they're willing to trigger a full scale nuclear war on their doorstep, which could also force China into Nuclear mayhem? Right. You seem to think of world politics like a giant modern day game of Risk.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Do they though?

Certainly they do. Cult indoctrination is, as it always is, for the little people to keep them obedient. This is by myth, orthodoxy and fear. But the elites live in a real world.

This is where your standpoint breaks down, as Glaucus said - they aren't demanding anything.

But they ARE demanding something - they are demanding not to be attacked, they are demanding territorial sanctity. They are demanding that their borders not be violated. They are demanding that they be accepted as a nation on the world stage with the rights to inviolability of borders.

That is why China, Russia and SK are currently shitting themselves.

Shitting themselves? I highly doubt. They might be having some concerns about the US intentions on their border but they are trying to play a waiting game. There is a race going on. China and Russia are trying to shore up their economies and wait out the US - it's international rope-a-dope. This was going much better under Bush but there is a smarter Imperial command in charge now. Still might blow up if the dollar heads for the shitter but the Euro looks like the one going down in the near term.