Brexit!! Yeah, it's a thing now..

Robert said:
His alleged criminal behaviour shouldn't be a factor in whether or not Scots favour independence.
But it will.
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Of course, because keeping Scotland in the union is far too important a matter to leave to the Scots. What better than an evidenceless crime - and even if there's nothing in it - everybody will assume there is. I think Intergrity Initiative had been having a go at him (along with other favourite targets Assange and Corbyn).
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
...this seems now like a red herring.
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Only if you think it has been a red herring for decades.

You might want to do a little research on why the border was and still is considered a security issue.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Of course, because keeping Scotland in the union is far too important a matter to leave to the Scots. What better than an evidenceless crime -
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:lol:

Another conspiracy to keep us Scots down?
Aye, could be, could be.

Also could be that his accusers are lying for reasons unrelated to any interventions by "the man".

Or could just be that he sexually assaulted people.

Could be lots of things.
 
Robert said:
Salmond was pretty much the face of the independence movement.

His alleged criminal behaviour shouldn't be a factor in whether or not Scots favour independence.
But it will.
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Oh, MY!

well, that is unfortunate.
 
Robert said:
Only if you think it has been a red herring for decades.
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Excuse me for being pedantic again but it's not about whether I think it's been a red herring for decades or not.

If violence on the border has just started because of the brexit thing then maybe there should be some concern over it and further maybe someone is stoking it to cause concern.
If the violence on the border has been going on for decades then it has nothing to do with brexit so why bring it up?
That's all.
 
Robert said:
Could be lots of things.
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Indeed it could, but these sorts of charges are very convenient for getting rid of people, even if they prove to be groundless, and fail to mark those who are politically protected.
The best part about it is that the allegations don't need to be true and there is very little risk from making allegations. A denial is as good as a conviction because of the extreme distaste the public has for such things. I don't know anything about his personal life, but when the stakes are high, when the underboss's cars fails to navigate the hairpin at the bottom of the hill, it's not always an accident.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
If the violence on the border has been going on for decades
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The point is that, despite the "peace time" and an official "end to hostilities", some bombing and shooting has continued regardless for the last 20 years so kids are clearly not all growing up in some "peace" vacuum. There's still a lot of ill-feeling and the suggestion that it would need outside interference to radicalise some of them is demonstrably absurd.
On the other hand, if you're a kid who is already pissed off at the British and they re-introduce those hated symbols of imperialism, the stop-and-check customs posts, well, who knows whether that might be the thing that tips you over the edge?

then it has nothing to do with brexit so why bring it up?
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The border issue has everything to do with Brexit.

As I already said, you can look up the reasons why it's an issue but here's one of the simpler ones.
Before there was an open border, customs offices on the border were often targeted for attacks, partly because they were seen as symbols of the British state.

The 1972 attack on the Newry customs office was not the first and would not be the last. There were 27 attacks recorded there out of 484 reported incidents on customs posts along the Border between 1969 and 1992
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Attacks like those would sometimes trigger tit-for-tat attacks by Loyalist paramilitaries and on it goes.

This hasn't been an issue for decades but the concern is it could be again. It hopefully won't come to that but calling it a red herring is to underestimate the historical significance of the border and the potential for violence.
 
Robert said:
The point is that, despite the "peace time" and an official "end to hostilities", some bombing and shooting has continued regardless for the last 20 years so kids are clearly not all growing up in some "peace" vacuum. There's still a lot of ill-feeling and the suggestion that it would need outside interference to radicalise some of them is demonstrably absurd.
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OK, let's see if I've got it now. The current bombing has nothing to do with Brexit - it's just continued violence that has never abated.
The worry is if Ireland and the UK decide to put in a hard border then there might be an escalation of attacks because there would be more potential targets because the border would have immovable manned checkpoints.
So it's not elevated troubles because of Brexit per se, but a theoretical risk depending on how Ireland and UK end up handling the border issue.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
So it's not elevated troubles because of Brexit per se,
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But it is because of Brexit. No Brexit, no need for a hard border.
but a theoretical risk depending on how Ireland and UK end up handling the border issue.
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Ireland will be coming at it as a representative of the EU. The EU requires its members to have a hard border to neighbouring, non-member countries. The only way this can be avoided is if there is some sort of "deal" between the EU and the UK.

-EDIT-
continued violence that has never abated.
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The violence has abated but it hasn't completely gone away.
 
Robert said:
Ireland will be coming at it as a representative of the EU. The EU requires its members to have a hard border to neighbouring, non-member countries.
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So ... the EU will require Ireland to build targets for bombers.

What are the actual levers that the EU can use to get its way?
 
The fun continues apace:
Brexit: Gibraltar 'colony' row flares as EU makes travel visa-free for Britons
UK rejects description in footnote attached, on insistence of Spain, to EU regulation

A straightforward change in EU law guaranteeing visa-free travel for Britons in Europe after Brexit has sparked a diplomatic row after Brussels described Gibraltar as “a colony of the British Crown” in its no-deal legislation.

The footnote containing the contentious description of the rock was attached to the EU’s regulation on the insistence of Spain, with whom the UK has been in dispute over Gibraltar for three centuries.

During a meeting on Friday morning with his EU counterparts, the UK’s ambassador in Brussels, Sir Tim Barrow, expressed Downing Street’s angry rejection of the description, officials disclosed.

“It is completely unacceptable to describe Gibraltar in this way,” the prime minster’s official spokesman said. “Gibraltar is a full part of the UK family and has a mature and modern constitutional relationship with the UK. This will not change due to our exit from the EU.”

And...

One in three UK firms plan for Brexit relocation
Survey finds surge of smaller companies activating plans to move operations abroad

Nearly one in three British businesses are planning to relocate some of their operations abroad or have already shifted them to cope with a hard Brexit, according to the Institute of Directors (IoD).

29% of firms in a survey of 1,200 members believed Brexit posed a significant risk to their operations in the UK and had either moved part of their businesses abroad already or were planning to do so.

More than one in 10 had already set up operations outside the UK as the prospect of a no-deal Brexit becomes more likely amid Westminster gridlock. Most firms considering a move were looking to open offices inside the European Union, said the IoD, which represents 30,000 firms.
 
Her words imply she is ruling out "no deal" but she has flip-flopped so many times already they have to be taken with a pinch of salt:
Earlier in her speech, May said a seamless border was “the cornerstone around which the community in Northern Ireland has come together to deliver peace and prosperity”.

“I will not do anything to put that at risk,” she said. “So while I have said that technology could play a part, and that we will look at alternative arrangements, these must be ones that can be made to work for the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland.”

“Northern Ireland does not have to rely on the Irish government or the European Union to prevent a return to borders of the past,” she said at a speech in Belfast. “The UK government will not let that happen. I will not let that happen.”

May said she understood that the “prospect of changing the backstop and reopening the withdrawal agreement creates real anxiety” in Northern Ireland but it was necessary to get the deal through the Commons.

The audience of Northern Ireland business owners and executives gave lukewarm applause to her speech. Several said they were frustrated that her plan to avoid a hard border and disruption to trade remained unclear.
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cecilia said:
this is going to make such a mess
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Yup. It was already a delicate and tricky situation but the UK government has managed to turn it into a complete omnishambles.

-EDIT-
On a selfish note, I'm booked up to go to Italy for a week of snowboarding, two days after the official leave date. If they don't get the finger out soon, my holiday could be even more adversely affected than it already is.
 
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Robert said:
On a selfish note, I'm booked up to go to Italy for a week of snowboarding, two days after the official leave date. If they don't get the finger out soon, my holiday could be even more adversely affected than it already is.
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sorry to hear that.
I worry about my relatives living in Europe. They are young and smart so they should do alright, but who needs this stress?
 
The circus continues.

Corbyn is now demanding the UK remain in the customs union. FWIW, I agree with him but he should have been campaigning for it two years ago the useless twat. He then has the chutzpah to call May out for exactly what he's been guilty of "recklessly running down the clock".

In response, May ruled out remaining in the customs union because, and this is the best bit, the UK won't then be able to negotiate trade deals. Given the UK's utterly pathetic attempts to negotiate this deal, I have no idea why she thinks it'll do any better after Brexit.

Meanwhile, everyone is hoping the Northern Ireland problem will just go away of its own accord.

I've never been much of a fan of British politicians in general but the current mob are by far the worst in my lifetime. And that goes for all the parties involved in this, from the SNP right through to the DUP. Arseholes, almost every one of them.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
You know that all computers are going to crash at midnight Dec 31, 1999.
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I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that the UK will grind to a halt on Mar 29, 2019, if that's your punchline.
The two situations are so different as to make such a comparison silly anyway.
With the "Millennium bug" most people with half a clue realised it was unlikely to cause major upheaval.
OTOH, the only people of note in UK politics who claim "no-deal" brexit is nothing to worry about are the even-more-right-wing Tories on the right of the right-wing Tory party. You might want to look into why they're so keen on it when almost no-one else is.
There is an awful lot of potential upheaval ahead, some of which could indeed kick in immediately, some of it gradually.
Pretending there is no there there isn't likely to help.
 
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