How gun nuts excuse murder

Glaucus

Glaucus

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How the Gun Nuts Try to Excuse Away the Santa Barbara Slaughter—and Why They’re All Wrong

They have their talking points at the ready for these, and they immediately got started: If we ban guns, they warned, then we have to ban knives and cars, because he used those to kill and injure people, too. California has liberal gun laws, and this proves they don’t work, they insisted. There is nothing we can do to stop gun violence, they recited; guns don't kill people, people do.

As usual, the gun nuts are wrong, and not one of these stands up to the slightest scrutiny.
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And this heart wrenching interview with the father of one of the Santa Barbara victims pretty much sums it up for me. What he says about the politicians is bang on.

 
Yes, but there are many, many reason why anyone would shoot up a bunch of people. Tackling all of those is nearly impossible. What's a lot more possible is to make it physically harder to shoot up a bunch of people. Take away the ability to shoot and killers will need to use other methods like knives which are far less effective at creating large body counts.
 
the killing spree started when Rodger's stabbed his 3 roommates to death at his apartment.
Two women and a man, UCSB students, were shot and killed by Rodger's near campus
Thirteen other people were injured, eight of them from gunshot wounds and four others by blunt trauma sustained when they were struck by Rodger's vehicle.


Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. Rodger had extensive contact with both mental health professionals and law enforcement authorities. Rodger’s parents had long been concerned about his erratic behavior.

his mother had contacted his therapist in April, concerned over bizarre videos her son had posted on YouTube. The family friend said the therapist contacted a mental health service, who referred the matter to police.

"Based upon the information available to them at the time," the statement continued, "sheriff's deputies concluded that Rodger was not an immediate threat to himself or others, and that they did not have cause to place him on an involuntary mental health hold, or to enter and search his residence. Therefore, they did not view the videos, conduct a weapons check on Rodger."

The case of Elliot Rodgers highlights a central problem, there is no way for authorities (be they mental health professionals or police) to intervene based on the information supplied by the family and friends of people suffering from mental illness, unless there is the threat of imminent harm, and there was no legal way for his parents to have him involuntarily committed.

civil liberties protect the rights of the mentally ill make it difficult to institutionalize mentally ill people who superficially appear to be fine – even when their families sense trouble.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
It's not just the guns - it's the culture.
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Whatever do you mean?

140530_JURIS_ChipotleGuns.jpg.CROP.promovar-mediumlarge.jpg
 
why is it SO easy for crazy people to get their hands on guns??
 
cecilia said:
why is it SO easy for crazy people to get their hands on guns??
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  1. Because the laws ALREADY IN EFFECT are not adequately enforced.
  2. Because the mental health profession in this country is terminally under-funded and constricted by current laws concerning protecting the rights of the mentally ill.
  3. Because if it weren't a gun, it would be (and was) a knife, a car, or some other form of attack.
This is a situation like so many others -- tragic as it may be -- where guns are NOT the cause of the problem.

I know that the idea of big bad guns scares you Cecilia, but weapons (any) are not the cause of problems, they're just tools...

In this particular instance with a mentally unstable person like Rodger, I have no doubt that if he could not have obtained a firearm, he would have acted out in any other way up to, and including building an IED.

My sincere concern here is not the presence or even the use of a gun. It's the fact that society as a whole is breeding and creating these dangerous nut cases at an ever-increasing rate. Even moreso that they knew he was dangerous but the laws on the books didn't allow them to act to prevent the event (and more importantly, get the guy the help he needed)...

Wayne
 
Wayne said:
Because the mental health profession in this country is terminally under-funded and constricted by current laws concerning protecting the rights of the mentally ill.
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So you're saying gun rights trump mental health rights?

Here's the thing, everyone has mental health issues. No one is beyond a mental break down, anyone can fall to pieces at any point for whatever reason. There is no way to know how that will affect anyone. It's nice that some of the mass shooters recently had a prediagnosed mental illness but that's not always the case and is really a distraction from the problem cause. And the fact is it doesn't really matter how well mental health treatment is funded because at all funding levels treating mental health issues is incredibly difficult - and that's assuming it was properly diagnosed which it usually isn't. And considering those who are the most mentally unhealthy are also often the poorest, a socialist style of treatment would be required and that wouldn't fly in the US.

On top of that, preventing people with mental health issues from owning a weapon is a form of gun control that requires some form of gun owner checking and that's opposed by the US gun lobby groups. And what do you consider a mental health issue? Personally, I think anyone who owns or wants to own weapons that have little utility other than to kill lots of people very quickly is suffering from some myriad of mental health issues that should automatically ban them from owning such things.
 
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Glaucus said:
So you're saying gun rights trump mental health rights?
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Not at all. The two are mutually exclusive discussions. My point is that mental health care in this country is criminally underfunded and unavailable when needed.

Even then, and in this case, the cops are restricted from getting people the help they need based on a "line in the sand" concept which says the person had to demonstrate an imminent danger. The. Ops could have told the parents "we can't do anything but you need to get him help now!" And that would have maybe averted the crisis...

They couldn't however because the law doesn't allow them to do that...

Wayne
 
Wayne said:
I know that the idea of big bad guns scares you Cecilia, but weapons (any) are not the cause of problems, they're just tools...
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oh, come on, Wayne...I don't know who you are talking to but I'm not scared of guns.

as I have already mentioned I know people with guns. I mean I know them personally. Mostly they are retired cops who have gone on to other careers but they kept their guns. I also know a fellow who is a member of the Pink Pistols. I don't have a single problem with that. From what I understand members are trained.

As long as people are trained to use a gun and understand that this is NOT A TOY, then they are being responsible gun owners.

I've never seen these guns (that my friends have). That's because they don't wave them around like immature children desperate to prove their manhood. They keep their guns locked up and out of view. And most certainly away from crazy people.

I do agree that services available for mentally ill persons is not working like it should.

the adults in the room really need to talk about this seriously because the idiots have spent way to much time yelling and screaming and we get nowhere.
 
To an extant, C has a point. The adults really do need to talk but all sides are so entrenched in their absolutes (beliefs, values and lobbying) that this likely won't happen.

Let me be clear... I think open carry is a bad idea, for precisely the reasons it is making the news now. I am much more in favor of concealed carry... no one needs to know until you need that weapon to protect yourself. Why advertise and make otherwise good (and oblivious) people nervous? It's trouble waiting to happen. Even the NRA has come out against the recent open carry rallies and now the NRA is getting some criticism from a Texas open carry group. Who would have thought?

And while I respect Mike's right to his opinion regarding the mental state of gun owners... when did you become the grand decider? As long as laws are being followed, what is the problem? I seem to recall that where you are, it's not exactly easy to own them so you should be fine... if other countries (or states... where this really needs to be decided) want to decide, let them do it.

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
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in Switzerland they have lots of guns but EVERYONE is required to get extensive training. I don't hear about lot's of crazy people killing citizens all over the place in Switzerland.

I get there's a different culture over there but they DO seem to be doing it correctly.
 
Gun advocate who hates restrictive gun laws makes a very convincing argument for stricter gun laws:

Justin Bourque faces murder, attempted murder charges in Moncton shootings

Yup, he hated gun control so much he thought he'd demonstrate exactly why we need stricter controls on guns. And he hated the police so much he decided he'd rather be in their custody then be soaked in the rain.

Some interesting facts: No known mental health issues. There's a shock! Unless of course you consider him being a gun nut a mental health issue. In that case, he was seriously messed up.
 
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