Brexit!! Yeah, it's a thing now..

It's been about how angry people have been about bailing out their bankrupt neighbors
Which bailouts though? Not having adopted the Euro, the UK is not involved in the Eurozone debt relief programs for Greece or Spain, for instance.

The UK is also a member of the International Money Fund, which provides debt relief to countries all over the world. Oddly enough, I have not heard the leaders of the Brexit campaign propose that the UK should leave the IMF...

Speaking as someone who has lived in Michigan his whole life... I know how much that sucks. Michigan made the US beaucoup bucks for a long time, until the slow slog of poor trade agreements and our money getting funneled to build the south instead of re-invested in the state finally sank us.
Specifically in terms of budgets, I think it is useful to remember that the European Union is quite different from the United States federal government. The entire EU budget for the year 2014 was 160 billion USD (143 bn EUR). Half (!) of this amount, close to 80 billion USD, was being spent on agriculture... By comparison, the federal budget of the USA was around 3 trillion USD in 2014 and the 2015 budget for the department of argiculture was 140 billion USD.

Put differently, around 1% of the entire European Unions´economic output is collected via membership fees whereas the US federal government collects roughly 17% to 18% of the economic output.

Even if you specifically look at financial transfers between members of the Eurozone (again, the United Kingdom is not a part of this) and between federal states in the US, suddenly even Euro basket cases like Greece start to look somewhat mundane. For example, between 1990 and 2009, Virginia collected close to 600 billion USD more from the federal government than it contributed in taxes. That is enough money to pay back all of Greece´s debts today and you would still have a huge chunk of money left over. Yet, Greece has been frequently discussed on the frontpages of international newspapers for years now while few people outside of the US are even aware of Virginia´s existence...
 
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Put differently, around 1% of the entire European Unions´economic output is collected via membership fees whereas the US federal government collects roughly 17% to 18% of the economic output.

Even if you specifically look at financial transfers between members of the Eurozone (again, the United Kingdom is not a part of this) and between federal states in the US, suddenly even Euro basket cases like Greece start to look somewhat mundane. For example, between 1990 and 2009, Virginia collected close to 600 billion USD more from the federal government than it contributed in taxes. That is enough money to pay back all of Greece´s debts today and you would still have a huge chunk of money left over. Yet, Greece has been frequently discussed on the frontpages of international newspapers for years now while few people outside of the US are even aware of Virginia´s existence...

Heh... Thanks for that info. Enlightening. Like I said, it may well be my ignorant American showing. Those are figures that don't get talked about around here, that is for sure. I will readily admit, I hadn't tried to seek any of it out, as it doesn't really directly pertain to my own life, and I have to draw a line somewhere. So thanks for adding to my understanding of the situation.

So, who does stand to profit from Britain dropping from EU and increased racism? Police? It seems like there's still a piece missing.
 
So, who does stand to profit from Britain dropping from EU and increased racism? Police? It seems like there's still a piece missing.

Well, there are all sorts of long and complex attempts at explaining who profits but at this stage there is so much uncertainty that no one really knows.
OTOH, if you look at the politicians who were championing the leave campaign (almost exclusively right-wing corporatists), you can get a "broad-brush" idea of those who *expect* to profit.
It's certainly not those known for caring about democracy or workers (or indeed even human) rights.
 
Hey, I'm an American, what do I know? Kinda like some of the old Amiga guys who live in Canada trolling me about American politics on Facebook.

I'm just all about independence.
 
From today's Independent:
With a Polish translation on the reverse? Sounds like some Poles did it, unless it's a really crappy google translate version of Polish. This could be a manifestation of anti-Polish racism, or it could be the work of local Poles to gain sympathy, or it could be the handiwork of a PR company working for Remain.To me it doesn't look like what it looks like it's supposed to look like.
 
I'm just all about independence.
Have you ever spent any time thinking about what that word actually means either for you as an individual living in a modern society or for a highly connected nation state in a globalized world?

Heh... Thanks for that info. Enlightening. Like I said, it may well be my ignorant American showing.
As the Brexit referendum showed, there are plenty of people in Europe who do not quite understand what the EU is, how it works and how high the membership fees are.

So, who does stand to profit from Britain dropping from EU and increased racism?
Investors who bet on a falling British Pound? :)

Police? It seems like there's still a piece missing.
Here is the rub: It feels like a piece is missing because the Brexit campaign never really explained what the relationship between the UK and the EU should be in the future. Even if they had, which they did not, nobody could guarantuee that the EU would in fact accept the terms of any such proposal without substantial changes (potentially negating many or even all assumed benefits).

As was discussed a few posts back, the few precise and frequently repeated claims that the Brexit campaign had made, namely saving tons of money in membership fees as well as limiting migration, have already been taken back since the referendum passed.
 
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Sounds like some Poles did it, unless it's a really crappy google translate version of Polish. This could be a manifestation of anti-Polish racism, or it could be the work of local Poles to gain sympathy, or it could be the handiwork of a PR company working for Remain.To me it doesn't look like what it looks like it's supposed to look like.

:confused:

I going to have to assume that your distance from events is clouding your judgement.
Unless, of course, you're somehow better placed to spot genuine anti-Polish sentiment than the Polish ambassador. (Who has no obvious motive for "opportunist" rabble rousing.)

Furthermore, this isn't anything like a one off incident nor is it happening in a vacuum.
 
Have you ever spent any time thinking about what that word actually means either for you as an individual living in a modern society or for a highly connected nation state in a globalized world?
For me? It's about being able to support myself and/or my family, to live my life on my own terms by my own choices without the massive government overreach which is now occurring here in the states. Whether or not that equates to Freedom, accepting that some form of government must exist, that's fine by me.

Wayne
 
:confused:

I going to have to assume that your distance from events is clouding your judgement.
Distance, closeness, who knows what gives better perspective.
Unless, of course, you're somehow better placed to spot genuine anti-Polish sentiment than the Polish ambassador. (Who has no obvious motive for "opportunist" rabble rousing.)
That's an ironic statement, right?
[/QUOTE]
 
Well, so far, in order to make the Leave campaign look bad, the Remain side have - among other things - conspired to have a politician murdered, have a story planted that the murderer shouted something and have also managed to orchestrate a general upturn in racist incidents and not-small-minded-xenophobia so I suppose the anti-Polish stuff (including the ambassador) must be part of that same conspiracy. Pretty obvious when you look at it from that angle.

And even if it isn't part of the conspiracy, it only seems like small minded shite but isn't really. ;)
 
Well, so far, in order to make the Leave campaign look bad, the Remain side have - among other things - conspired to have a politician murdered,

Could be a lone nut - but I doubt that this murder would have been orchestrated by any UK anti-EU organisation or condoned. It would be monumentally suicidal to the cause. Killing is bad enough, killing a woman is unforgivable and killing a youngish fairly attractive woman is evidence of demonic possession!!!! IF someone were to calculate an attack that would trigger very strong emotions (and it's hard to think while having very strong emotions) and paint an opposing side with a very black brush, this is the kind of thing that they would do. It's a case of the story being TOO good. The anti-side knows this as well and if they had any knowledge of what was about to happen it would never have been allowed.

All I've heard so far about the guy is that he was a loner (typical) that nobody knew much about - not much in the way of social connections - typical kind of profile for these spontaneous individual crimes but also the typical profile for a patsy or a manchurean candidate - someone who could be manipulated into doing something crazy. We know that he has been involved to some extent with right wing groups, it appears that he was known to the FBI and that the FBI had worked in the UK to arrange meetings of far right groups, we know that far right groups were used to overthrow the government in Kiev and it's pretty clear that the US government was working with those groups through funding from the state department, with direct political involvement from the US political classes and it's almost certain that they had intelligence agents embedded.

I would be surprised if all of the white supremicist and far right groups were not riddled with British and American intelligence agents. All of the environmental and peace groups were and the US president appealed directly to the UK citizens to reject the Brexit - I would not be surprised if this plea was in line with the strategic interests of the US - strategically for the remain side it is not a bad thing if a right wing loner kills an nice young lady MP. It would be a cold calculation but by equally cold calculations millions of women and children (and the ever expendable men) are killed for geo-strategic interests.

If this DOES say anything about the right, it says that they had no idea who this guy was or what he was going to do.

have a story planted that the murderer shouted something and have also managed to orchestrate a general upturn in racist incidents and not-small-minded-xenophobia
Planting the story or having him say it - I think it has become clear that he said it. What is interesting is that the guy is still alive and was captured. That sort of lose end would not have been allowed in the US. :)

so I suppose the anti-Polish stuff (including the ambassador) must be part of that same conspiracy.
The reason why I asked you if you were being ironic is that you seemed to imply that ambassadors aren't actually instruments of their governments. The Polish ambassador is not a free agent, and Poland has its own objectives and opinions about the EU (and NATO) - which does not necessarily align with the interests of the Polish people, of course, but that is generally true of the corporate entities we call states and their subjects. The anti-Polish notes with translation in Polish on the back is just a bit too respectful and convenient for the type of louts I would expect to do these sorts of things. The Poles in England would start to pick up English or know other expats who had acquired some English and so could get the gist of the note without the presumably uneducated louts having to go to the trouble of translating the message for them. That's why I wondered if it was just a crappy Google translate. However, to play to the crowd back in Poland a translation on the note would be gold.
Poland is currently a key player in the US war on Russia. Poland is holding the NATO summit this July (8-9) in Warsaw - to really thumb the nose at the old Warsaw Pact. Poland has already hosted a major American willy waving session aimed at intimidating Russia. Poland is also suffering from some unwanted democracy at the moment which has caused them to vote for the wrong government which has been acting a bit anti-EU-ish.

Poland is extremely important to the US for its location, but together with the UK they have been strong proponents of Russian sanctions while other EU countries are faltering because it's costing them. As a message to the British public that the Leave side is a bunch of xenophobes only and as a message to the Polish crowd that the EU would look out for their interests and that Leavers are bad people I wouldn't say that this conveniently pre-translated leaflet is not an unfortunate development for the political classes and it is so easy to arrange.

All news organizations will provide their own viewpoint and I'm sure the "it's all a bunch of racists" viewpoint will be front and center (along with the "we want to stay in because we are nice people in favour of nice things and we aren't a bunch of racists") and everyone will know that it's racists who want out but very few people will know who those bigots are, they will just know that they know those kinds of people are out there - though any of their friends who voted leave will have done it for other reasons.

I fear that in a short while anyone who voted leave will just be shouted at as if they were racists even if they had other reasons to - because that's what social justice is for.
 
The anti-Polish notes with translation in Polish on the back is just a bit too respectful and convenient for the type of louts I would expect to do these sorts of things. The Poles in England would start to pick up English or know other expats who had acquired some English and so could get the gist of the note without the presumably uneducated louts having to go to the trouble of translating the message for them. That's why I wondered if it was just a crappy Google translate. However, to play to the crowd back in Poland a translation on the note would be gold.

As I said, it didn't happen in a vacuum. Maybe they were false flag jobs (personally, I find that extremely unlikely) but, even if they were, plenty of other stuff has been going on too. I just don't buy the "it's all a conspiracy" line.

When I mentioned your distance from events I wasn't just being glib. There really is a nasty atmosphere here just now which has been building for some time and I think you would probably have to be living here to notice the change. That's also why I thought that TRNN clip was so bizarre - the guy either doesn't live here or he is so out of touch as to be practically irrelevant.

On a personal level, "White power" stickers have appeared on lamp posts in Glasgow over the last few weeks, something I haven't seen in decades. Anecdotal, of course, but not a pleasant sight and certainly in keeping with the general vibe of the right-wing press and politicians.


I fear that in a short while anyone who voted leave will just be shouted at as if they were racists even if they had other reasons to

I fear that too, and I've already seen hints of it.
I almost voted to leave myself and immigration would have had zero to do with it. As I mentioned earlier, one of my best friends voted to leave and immigration had nothing to do with his vote either.

OTOH, he's the one and only Leave voter I know (of around 20 or so) who didn't use immigration as a reason and there's no ignoring the build up of "send them home" sentiment which has been increasing over the last few weeks. If you can show me evidence that it wasn't a decisive factor in the result, I'll happily eat my own and anyone else's hat.
 
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Well There are Morons in both camps. Leave & UKIP have the added problem that Racists seem to think they have been given a green light to be their typical obnoxious self due to Brexit "winning".

Although we haven't "Won" anything until Article 50 is invoked. Cameron wussed out.

So who for next PM ?

Gove is a Backstabber
Crabb is a Homophobe
May has decimated the Police Force (My Bro in law is a Copper and they all hate her) and she has overseen the biggest surge in immigration probably in this countrys history. Not only that., She believes in Child Sex and has publically stated "it does them no harm"
Liam Fox ? Possibly <-- A bit past it though
Andrea Leadsom, Lack of Cabinet experience due to Osbourne deliberately "overlooking her" because she wouldn't dance to his tune.

I'd choose Leadsom.


You might find me here more often due to me getting suspended from OCUK for posting that Video !!
 
Looks like corporation tax is coming down, which is good if you're a corporation:
George Osborne has pledged to cut corporation tax to encourage businesses to continue investing in the UK following the EU referendum vote.

In an interview with the Financial Times, the chancellor said he would reduce the rate to below 15% - some 5% lower than its current 20% rate.

That would give the UK the lowest corporation tax of any major economy.
 
And here's another attempt to circumvent the democratic will of the people:

Law firm Mishcon de Reya has been instructed to launch a legal challenge to block Britain from leaving the European Union, in spite of the popular vote to leave the bloc.

Solicitors and barristers from Mishcon de Reya are working with Blackstone, Matrix and Monckton Chambers to argue Article 50 of the European Union – the legal process of withdrawing from the EU – can only be triggered after a vote in Parliament.

Mishcon de Reya said “legal steps have been taken” to ensure Article 50 will not be triggered without an Act of Parliament.

Triggering Article 50 without consent of Parliament would be unlawful, the firm alleged. In a statement, it said:

The Referendum held on 23 June was an exercise to obtain the views of UK citizens, the majority of whom expressed a desire to leave the EU. But the decision to trigger Article 50 of the Treaty of European Union, the legal process for withdrawal from the EU, rests with the representatives of the people under the UK Constitution.

Mishcon de Reya did not say on whose behalf it is acting, but the Financial Times indicated it was “on behalf of a group of businesses.”
 
I read on "The Reg" comments that (apparently) the PM can use "Royal Prerogative" if needed. I already signed the Petition to revoke the 1972 European Communities Act last week just in case some sleazebag tried to weasel out the invocation of Article 50
 
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