Scotland one step closer to independence?

[Robert]

Well, maybe not but the Scottish National Party, who had a minority administration before the election, have just been re-elected in an absolute landslide.

Once all results were in, the SNP totalled 69 seats, Labour had secured 37, the Tories had 15, the Lib Dems won five, and others totalled three.

The SNP took key seats in Labour heartlands and the Liberal Democrat vote also collapsed.

The SNP now has a clear majority of four in the 129-seat parliament, enough votes to hold an independence referendum.

The scottish elections are set up in such a way as to make it "virtually impossible" for any one party to gain an outright majority. This is the first time any party has managed it and gives it some context.

The complicating factor to all of this is that, despite voting for the party of independence, many Scots don't actually want independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13305522

 

[cecilia]

reading a few comments in that link it seems the voters were also saying a giant NO to previous incumbents - and independence was not on the voters minds.

understandable, maybe sometime in the future Independence will look attractive

 

[Robert]

reading a few comments in that link it seems the voters were also saying a giant NO to previous incumbents -

A lot of different things going on. The three traditionally strong parties have pissed a lot of people off for different reasons but the last four years of SNP minority government was also given a major thumbs up.
A lot of people who would never have considered voting for them before were pleasantly surprised by how well they governed.

and independence was not on the voters minds.

It was for some but nowhere near all.

understandable, maybe sometime in the future Independence will look attractive

I've voted for that party all my adult life. I've watched them rise from a minor, "crank" party in the 90s, to a decent minority in 2003, the largest party (but still a minority) in 2007 until now, where they are the dominant force by a huge margin.

Independence has been increasing in attractiveness the whole time, so it's possible.

 

[smithy]

It's ironic that the SNP want to leave the UK but support joining the euro, with all the loss of independence that brings with it.

 

[Robert]

It's ironic that the SNP want to leave the UK but support joining the euro, with all the loss of independence that brings with it.

I take your point but that's a rather simplistic (to the point of being silly) view, as I'm sure you are well aware.

 

[cecilia]

I think money in general is silly, but I seem to be the only one :mrgreen:

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

It's ironic that the SNP want to leave the UK but support joining the euro, with all the loss of independence that brings with it.

I take your point but that's a rather simplistic (to the point of being silly) view, as I'm sure you are well aware.

Joining the euro? Are they nuts? A sovereign country must have it's own currency and it's own national (publicly owned) bank. Anything less is not independence.

 

[Robert]

It's ironic that the SNP want to leave the UK but support joining the euro, with all the loss of independence that brings with it.

I take your point but that's a rather simplistic (to the point of being silly) view, as I'm sure you are well aware.

Joining the euro? Are they nuts? A sovereign country must have it's own currency and it's own national (publicly owned) bank. Anything less is not independence.

Depends on your definition of independence.
You could argue that no country is really independent if you go down that route.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Depends on your definition of independence.
You could argue that no country is really independent if you go down that route.

Does Scotland really believe that they can't become Portugal or Greece or Ireland or...

When you start using a currency that is controlled by a power outside of yourself then you have given up your sovereignty and even if you think you haven't you will find that you have once you find yourself being forced to take on the bailout with strings because you couldn't revalue your own currency in accord with your own changes in productivity.

If someone else controls your currency they control your policies. It sounds like German Bankers have infiltrated the SNP.

 

[Robert]

Depends on your definition of independence.
You could argue that no country is really independent if you go down that route.

Does Scotland really believe that they can't become Portugal or Greece or Ireland or...

When you start using a currency that is controlled by a power outside of yourself then you have given up your sovereignty and even if you think you haven't you will find that you have once you find yourself being forced to take on the bailout with strings because you couldn't revalue your own currency in accord with your own changes in productivity.

If someone else controls your currency they control your policies. It sounds like German Bankers have infiltrated the SNP.

Valid points but "someone else" already does; how is having the currency controlled by the Bank of England better?

 

[Robert]

I should add that this 'euro' argument is somewhat of a strawman as far as the point of the thread is concerned.

When the SNP bring forward their independence referendum, it won't simply be choice between "leave the UK and join the Euro - yes or no?"

Their current policy, if Scots vote for independence, is to have a further referendum on the currency. Initially the Pound would be retained, as would the monarchy.

 

[Glaucus]

Does Scotland really believe that they can't become Portugal or Greece or Ireland or...

I really don't know what the current economic state of Scotland is. If they are doing well joining the Eurozone is not a bad idea. If they are struggling then they need to get their finances in order. Can't speak for Ireland, but Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro, and probably wouldn't have if they didn't lie about their situation. But at the time they were blinded by huge Eurozone grants. That's the mistake Scotland can't make, they need to be honest about their own abilities. If they get greedy and just want a few quick hand outs, then they may be setting themselves up for a fall.

I think devaluing your currency is greatly overrated. It didn't help Argentina. And Argentina may have done better for itself if it was part of some trading block that could have helped it stay afloat. Either way, once a nation defaults it looses a lot of control. Everyone one of us here has the choice of absolute freedom or to go to work. Going to work forces you to give up some freedom in return for some cash. While at work you do as you're told. But after work you can do what you like with the cash. However, those who choose absolute freedom and don't work find that the lack of money is far more restrictive then having to do what you're told.

However, like Robert pointed out, Scotland is not likely to make any crazy changes soon. They would need a track record as an independent nation before they could apply for Eurozone.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

When you start using a currency that is controlled by a power outside of yourself then you have given up your sovereignty[...]

Valid points but "someone else" already does; how is having the currency controlled by the Bank of England better?

It isn't better - it's exactly the same but that's the point. You don't become independent by switching who you are subservient to. Money isn't neutral, it's a tool for managing the production of your economy, but it also serves the people who issue it and if that isn't your own government then it doesn't serve you.

When money is created as credit (which is how the majority of money is created - by banks) then the issuer of the credit applies an interest which skims the productivity of the economy in the way that a tax does but outside of the control of the government (and thus outside of the control of the electorate). Because interest is exponential and needs to be paid with new money, which itself is created through credit by banks debt must grow and this is paid back out of the productive economy. Ultimately the production of the economy leaks away to the owner of the currency (the owner of the right to license others to create the currency under their rules). In the case of government owned banks that means it gets recycled back into the government and then out again into the local economy. For an externally controlled currency the productivity of the economy leaks away.

One giant advantage that the US has enjoyed for half a century or more is that large swaths of the world use US dollars for trade and the massive use of dollars benefits the US enormously as they acquire goods for printed paper (or bits on hard-drives these days). Use of US dollars abroad has the effect of transferring foreign productivity to the US for Americans to enjoy. It's a form of tribute extracted by debt (because a credit is a debt) instead of direct conquest.

 

[Robert]

When you start using a currency that is controlled by a power outside of yourself then you have given up your sovereignty[...]

Valid points but "someone else" already does; how is having the currency controlled by the Bank of England better?

It isn't better - it's exactly the same but that's the point.

Except that isn't the point. Not remotely. At least it wasn't until this thread Frankensteined into an argument about monetary policy.

Independence from Westminster is about much more than that.
Invading foreign nations, just as a starter for ten.
Nuclear weapons.
Natural resources.
Coastal policy.
Taxation.
The fact that Scotland is traditionally more left leaning than England but always gets lumbered with right wing goverments.

I could go on....

 

[Robert]

"There's no way on earth that Scotland would ever have participated as an independent country in the illegal war in Iraq.

One of the better reasons.

This article also re-states that sterling would initially be retained.

 

[Robert]

More promising developments:

THE Scottish Parliament is to call, for the first time, for the Trident nuclear submarine weapons system to be removed from Scotland.
The devolved parliament is to back a formal resolution on the matter soon, with this month's Scottish elections having returned a majority of parliamentarians who are now opposed to the base at Faslane.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/sc ... 6772334.jp

 

[Robert]

The people of Scotland are to be offered a historic opportunity to devise a federal future for their country before next year's general election, it emerged on Saturday night, as a shock new poll gave the campaign for independence a narrow lead for the first time.

Ahead in one of the main polls (51-49) for the first time. This is going to be a lot closer than I thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/06/scots-radical-new-deal-save-the-union?

 

[metalman]

When does the rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall start?

Leaving the UK to join the EU would make a make a mockery of “independence.”

be careful what you wish for ... because you might get it.

 

[JoBBo]

Leaving the UK to join the EU would make a make a mockery of “independence.”

be careful what you wish for ... because you might get it.

I hope you realize that Scotland is already part of the European Union. They already "got it".

 

[Robert]

When does the rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall start?

That would be a bit of a land grab / giveaway: